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Brexit

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2020 21:35

What's the current state of play?

Welll.... (deeepppp breath)

We have a bit of a time problem. All these talks going on to the 11th Hour with a looming deadline causes a bit of a head ache.

For a deal to be completed we first have to agree a deal with the EU but there's also the small matter of getting it written up and ratified too. All before 1st Jan.

We've got a problem here though. We've past the point where this is possible by normal processes. By all accounts even getting a legal text written following an agreement in principle isn't possible in the time left.

And the formal process of then putting it into law on both sides of the channel is even more difficult.

In the UK parliament would still, in theory, have to scrutinise and ratify a legal document. In theory. In practice Johnson may be able find a way to bypass parliament and have government just sign it off. This might suit Johnson's interests - in the short term at least - as he doesn't get a Tory Rebellion from whichever wing of the party doesn't like the wording of an agreement. But you can see the obvious flaws in this plan...

Where it maybe more difficult is on the EU side. This has to be done by the Member States and the European Union. In theory.

If we can't get it done by 1st Jan, we have a gap period if there is no extension. Johnson has said he doesn't want an extension and has said he won't ask for one. And the mood in Europe wouldn't likely give us one anyway.

The long this drags out the more problematic this becomes because we need to find fudges to deal with it.

By all account the most difficult problem is the European Parliament as its said point blank that it will not vote on a Brexit Deal this year. Apparently MEPs are throwing a hissy fit over it and are insisting they all get time to properly scrutinise the deal rather than just rubber stamping a deal. Barnier is aware of the issue and has apparently agreed to a few weeks will be given over to debate on this in the European Parliament. A couple of weeks we don't have.

There is now a whole debate on how this is managed.

There's talk of an interim treaty as a sort of bridging treaty until the proper one is drawn up. Not a transition extension. But a transition extension. Trouble is, there's a few countries who don't want a delay/extension/call it what you will.

There's talk of a 'provisional application' of the Treaty by the EU. This would work if the European Council used its power to do this rather than going through the European Parliament. Thats basically the leaders of member states approving and then throwing it back to the European Parliament. Of course this leaves a fairly obvious big spanner that could later be thrown into the works at a date which would be pretty problematic if it were to happen... In practice this would tie the European Parliament into just rubber stamping a deal to avoid that, which is why they are throwing a bit of a hissy fit over this option.

The good news is that the deal won't need to be ratified all 27 countries internally, if they classify the deal as an 'EU-Only Deal' rather than what is called a 'Mixed Deal'. This means it escapes the risk of a rogue veto.

Of course, its never that simple - and the argument is that the European Parliament might end up being more difficult if national ratification process is bypassed... And the whole idea of a provisional treaty falls down on practical issue that there isn't time to write this necessary treaty by 1st January.

Then there is talk of a 'retroactive application'. This is essentially No Deal but with an aggreement to retrospectively apply whatever Deal is later reached.

Now imagine you are an importer / exporter who is buying and selling stuff in the interim period. Except you don't know what anything you are buying costs / or how much you have to sell it for to cover your costs.

This apparently could be dealt with if there was an agreement over this using GATT Article XXIV 5(c) - to not apply tariffs in this interim period. This would require both sides to agree to this. And whilst this might suit the UK it is a bit of a problem for the EU as it effectly gives the UK 'a cake option and not much incentive to finish a deal whilst leaving the EU with the appearance of 'blame'. (The EU ends up in the situation where they have to put a deadline on this and then be seen to be the ones being difficult if this isn't then met...)

Then there's apparently a 'standstill arrangement'. Which sounds like another form of extension option.

This does make the dynamic of the UK running down the clock into a bit of context and how if the EU want to look like they aren't to 'blame' in the eyes of UK citizens then it gets increasingly difficult. But this is at the risk of the UK triggering accidental No Deal if the EU just don't buy into the game the UK are playing over this.

My reading of this, does suggest that if Johnson is playing silly buggers and doesn't believe the EU will 'allow' the UK to no deal then this would explain the UK strategy a bit more. But it is REALLY high stakes and there is no guarentee that the EU won't just drop us in it, a deal just isn't agreed or the EU gets into a situation where they find a way to fudge the 'interim no deal period'.

It sounds like a complete and utter nightmare all round, and very much starts to look like the UK is really playing games here. It hurts my head.

See Jon Worth who did the original thread explaining all this:
twitter.com/jonworth/status/1338861719095898114

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TurquoiseBaubles · 20/12/2020 19:48

Thanks Ochon, I was on the phone to dd and missed the news.

I'm trying to get my head around all of this. It does appear that the UK wants to be an island; though and island without NI, Scotland or Wales, all of whom don't seem to want to have much to do with England atm.

This is more shocking than March. Or the Icelandic volcano. And I thought those were bad.

RedToothBrush · 20/12/2020 19:49

I hope you all have British reared meat ordered for Christmas... supermarket logistics managers must be going into meltdown tonight

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ListeningQuietly · 20/12/2020 19:54

MrsL
I was indeed wrong.
And I concur with others that this may have less to do with COVID than it says on the tin.

DHs Christmas present is somewhere between Italy and here
no idea when it will turn up

Amazon prime within the UK is still working just fine
for stuff that originates in the UK or was already here

But yes I think the UK is getting a bit of a reality check
those pesky elected MEPs wanting to check the work of the unelected bureaucrats Wink

HoneysuckIejasmine · 20/12/2020 20:06

Oh shiiiiiiit. I think I need to go to supermarket tonight and stock up on cheddar. DS is 90% cheese. I've got some in my Christmas order but.... Fuck.

Whenwillow · 20/12/2020 20:08

There's absolutely nothing about this on the BBC news site. I imagine that people who are paying attention will hit the shops tomorrow, and the rest will notice very soon after.

Peregrina · 20/12/2020 20:08

And I concur with others that this may have less to do with COVID than it says on the tin.

But the perfect excuse. The EU is going to be blamed by the Brexiters anyway, but they have almost certainly had enough now of the Johnson Government's threatening to walk out, not doing, constantly putting deadlines back, still whining and expecting them to cave in, and now an absolute deadline has passed.

Italy and Alpine ski resorts were criticised for not containing early Covid breakouts, and not closing borders, but now that Johnson has declared a tier4 lockdown for London, they can say they are only learning from earlier mistakes and are therefore closing borders early.

Meanwhile for those Brexiter apologists (who seem to have been a bit quieter on threads in the last few days) who say that we don't need stuff from the EU because it can all be brought in on containers from the Far East - with containers containing vast amounts and shipping costs being low - well that excuse bites the dust also, with the container ports being log-jammed.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 20/12/2020 20:09

damn. The panic is going to spread covid so fast when people start panic buying.

RedToothBrush · 20/12/2020 20:13

@Whenwillow

There's absolutely nothing about this on the BBC news site. I imagine that people who are paying attention will hit the shops tomorrow, and the rest will notice very soon after.
Which people who pay attention will this be?
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titchy · 20/12/2020 20:14

Which people who pay attention will this be?

Everyone on this thread!

Whenwillow · 20/12/2020 20:14

People who don't rely on BBC news, I meant

PussyCatInChristmasStockings · 20/12/2020 20:20

Red people lacking cheese?

mrslaughan · 20/12/2020 20:23

LQ - even I am surprised.... but I also think that maybe it has less to do with Covid than it appears on the surface ......look if it makes everyone sit up and take notice - turns Brexiteers like Chope , redwood and Francois into pariahs in their own country and then bring it on ...... I do think I can fit much more food in our house......

And much in line with the Xmas spirit , a dear friend was doing a trip to my favourite cheese shop ( I had decided not too) as her Xmas plans had changed overnight, abs offered to pick some up for me. So not only do I have my blocks abs blocks of cheddar, info on how to make ricotta and now lots of yummy continental cheese.....

mrslaughan · 20/12/2020 20:24

..... she said to me - we should stick up , we may not be getting any for awhile.....

Peregrina · 20/12/2020 20:28

Well, the Brexiters were very keen to control our borders. They didn't expect to have them controlled for us.

ListeningQuietly · 20/12/2020 20:31

One of those cakes contains no chocolate
the other contains lots
Smile
very proud of my daughter

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?
Chersfrozenface · 20/12/2020 20:34

The borders story is on the BBC News site, and well down the page is this little nugget - the last sentence is particularly interesting. I do hope the words "Oh shit!" pass a few lips - talk about being hoist with your own petard.*

"France has suspended all travel links including freight lorries with the UK for 48 hours from midnight. It said the period should be used to provide a co-ordinated European response. Thousands of lorries move between the countries every day. The UK Cabinet Office is to meet on Monday to assess the impact on trade."

www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55385768

*I could do you a drawing of an actual 17th century petard if you wanted.

HappyWinter · 20/12/2020 20:40

Those cakes look amazing!

Oh dear, looks like we'll be getting the Brexit supply issues early? Poor hauliers stuck in those queues. Christmas is going to be fun. Think I might do the last of my Christmas food shopping tomorrow.

RedToothBrush · 20/12/2020 20:46

The UK Cabinet Office is to meet on Monday to assess the impact on trade.

I find it quite concerning that we have to have a Cabinet Office meeting to assess this, rather than a) having this on file due to brexit b) having this on file due to more basic planning about possible strategic and infrustructial threats to the UK and the food supply chain.

I guess we can expect the Gove to be deployed tomorrow with a load of xenophobic propaganda.

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HappyWinter · 20/12/2020 20:47

I got some things for the local food bank today, if anyone else can do the same for their local ones it would be much appreciated. January isn't going to be fun for them.

Peregrina · 20/12/2020 20:49

Yep,.we are planning the last of our Christmas food shop tomorrow.

TokyoSushi · 20/12/2020 20:54

I wouldn't be surprised if you can't move for interviews with the Govemeister on breakfast TV tomorrow.

I also wouldn't be surprised if once again the Cabinet Office hadn't seen this coming and are starting with a blank piece of paper.

HoneysuckIejasmine · 20/12/2020 20:54

Well I can make do a Christmas dinner (not that my kids will eat it) and the brexit stash is good to go but I'm still apprehensive. Shit.

mrslaughan · 20/12/2020 20:57

@HappyWinter I do a regular payment to our local food bank and to fareshare. Plus do £10 a week via Ocado who match it......so makes it £20.
I will look at fo a bigger donation in the new year. The food banks around here have been very busy since the beginning of the first lockdown - which is an indictment on this government

DGRossetti · 20/12/2020 21:01

I find it quite concerning that we have to have a Cabinet Office meeting to assess this, rather than a) having this on file due to brexit b) having this on file due to more basic planning about possible strategic and infrustructial threats to the UK and the food supply chain.

know when I was talking about planning a vaccine rollout ?

September.

There are unknown unknowns. But there are known unknowns. You can plan around the latter.

HappyWinter · 20/12/2020 21:03

That's great @mrslaughan. Ours are busy too. We shouldn't even need food banks in a rich country. I'm ashamed that we need them, it's not good enough and it makes me angry.

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