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Brexit

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2020 21:35

What's the current state of play?

Welll.... (deeepppp breath)

We have a bit of a time problem. All these talks going on to the 11th Hour with a looming deadline causes a bit of a head ache.

For a deal to be completed we first have to agree a deal with the EU but there's also the small matter of getting it written up and ratified too. All before 1st Jan.

We've got a problem here though. We've past the point where this is possible by normal processes. By all accounts even getting a legal text written following an agreement in principle isn't possible in the time left.

And the formal process of then putting it into law on both sides of the channel is even more difficult.

In the UK parliament would still, in theory, have to scrutinise and ratify a legal document. In theory. In practice Johnson may be able find a way to bypass parliament and have government just sign it off. This might suit Johnson's interests - in the short term at least - as he doesn't get a Tory Rebellion from whichever wing of the party doesn't like the wording of an agreement. But you can see the obvious flaws in this plan...

Where it maybe more difficult is on the EU side. This has to be done by the Member States and the European Union. In theory.

If we can't get it done by 1st Jan, we have a gap period if there is no extension. Johnson has said he doesn't want an extension and has said he won't ask for one. And the mood in Europe wouldn't likely give us one anyway.

The long this drags out the more problematic this becomes because we need to find fudges to deal with it.

By all account the most difficult problem is the European Parliament as its said point blank that it will not vote on a Brexit Deal this year. Apparently MEPs are throwing a hissy fit over it and are insisting they all get time to properly scrutinise the deal rather than just rubber stamping a deal. Barnier is aware of the issue and has apparently agreed to a few weeks will be given over to debate on this in the European Parliament. A couple of weeks we don't have.

There is now a whole debate on how this is managed.

There's talk of an interim treaty as a sort of bridging treaty until the proper one is drawn up. Not a transition extension. But a transition extension. Trouble is, there's a few countries who don't want a delay/extension/call it what you will.

There's talk of a 'provisional application' of the Treaty by the EU. This would work if the European Council used its power to do this rather than going through the European Parliament. Thats basically the leaders of member states approving and then throwing it back to the European Parliament. Of course this leaves a fairly obvious big spanner that could later be thrown into the works at a date which would be pretty problematic if it were to happen... In practice this would tie the European Parliament into just rubber stamping a deal to avoid that, which is why they are throwing a bit of a hissy fit over this option.

The good news is that the deal won't need to be ratified all 27 countries internally, if they classify the deal as an 'EU-Only Deal' rather than what is called a 'Mixed Deal'. This means it escapes the risk of a rogue veto.

Of course, its never that simple - and the argument is that the European Parliament might end up being more difficult if national ratification process is bypassed... And the whole idea of a provisional treaty falls down on practical issue that there isn't time to write this necessary treaty by 1st January.

Then there is talk of a 'retroactive application'. This is essentially No Deal but with an aggreement to retrospectively apply whatever Deal is later reached.

Now imagine you are an importer / exporter who is buying and selling stuff in the interim period. Except you don't know what anything you are buying costs / or how much you have to sell it for to cover your costs.

This apparently could be dealt with if there was an agreement over this using GATT Article XXIV 5(c) - to not apply tariffs in this interim period. This would require both sides to agree to this. And whilst this might suit the UK it is a bit of a problem for the EU as it effectly gives the UK 'a cake option and not much incentive to finish a deal whilst leaving the EU with the appearance of 'blame'. (The EU ends up in the situation where they have to put a deadline on this and then be seen to be the ones being difficult if this isn't then met...)

Then there's apparently a 'standstill arrangement'. Which sounds like another form of extension option.

This does make the dynamic of the UK running down the clock into a bit of context and how if the EU want to look like they aren't to 'blame' in the eyes of UK citizens then it gets increasingly difficult. But this is at the risk of the UK triggering accidental No Deal if the EU just don't buy into the game the UK are playing over this.

My reading of this, does suggest that if Johnson is playing silly buggers and doesn't believe the EU will 'allow' the UK to no deal then this would explain the UK strategy a bit more. But it is REALLY high stakes and there is no guarentee that the EU won't just drop us in it, a deal just isn't agreed or the EU gets into a situation where they find a way to fudge the 'interim no deal period'.

It sounds like a complete and utter nightmare all round, and very much starts to look like the UK is really playing games here. It hurts my head.

See Jon Worth who did the original thread explaining all this:
twitter.com/jonworth/status/1338861719095898114

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PussyCatInChristmasStockings · 20/12/2020 19:17

13Cats Chesh East here (previously CWAC).

PussyCatInChristmasStockings · 20/12/2020 19:19

Red don't ignore the A51 corridor between the A55 and the M6.

OchonAgusOchonO · 20/12/2020 19:19

@ListeningQuietly - Ferries to Ireland suspended too : the Land Bridge has fallen

Ferries are still running to allow supply chains to keep moving but other passengers will be restricted.

RedToothBrush · 20/12/2020 19:21

If it's all over NE Wales, Manchester and Stoke, how the hell is Cheshire not in T3?

After this week I was very much expecting it to go T3 during last night's press conference. I was amazed it didn't. It should be. Warrington's figures are now up to 191.4 per 100,000. A week ago they were at the upper end of T2 with 125.2.

I am expecting T3 if not T4 on 30th December review now.

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Mistigri · 20/12/2020 19:22

DFDS go to Belgium a lot

They do the Dover Calais and Dover Dunkerque routes and they are right now boarding the 9pm ferry out of Dover that can't possibly be in France and unloaded by midnight.

What a horrible mess :/

TonMoulin · 20/12/2020 19:22

I don’t think the strain in Wales that has created chaos there is the same than in the SE from what I’ve read this am

Mistigri · 20/12/2020 19:23

Sorry, it's the Dieppe ferry they are boarding but that's worse: it's a 4-5 hour crossing that no one will be getting off.

I really feel for all those freight drivers stuck in queues and now this.

TonMoulin · 20/12/2020 19:24

FWIW, I suspect that the T4 will expand quite quickly. Cheshire might well go from T2 to T4 directly.

TonMoulin · 20/12/2020 19:25

Tbh misti. I think I’m more sorry for us struggling with fresh foods within the next few days.

TurquoiseBaubles · 20/12/2020 19:26

Fucking hell. I wonder will Ireland have the guts to cancel flights. It's irrelevant to me anyway; either way dd's trip home is cancelled again, as is her plan to spend Christmas Day with a colleague. She's working four 14 hour night shifts (24th to 27th) in between which she will go back to an empty flat.

Tomorrow they are four (out of 10) nurses short - two have rung in sick Hmm

She's going to quit in the new year - young nurses really have had a shit time and she's at the end of her rope Sad

TokyoSushi · 20/12/2020 19:28

Thank you so much as always, I did wonder how many of those 'last train out of London' last night were heading for WBQ

TurquoiseBaubles · 20/12/2020 19:28

Fucking hell again. I missed the bit about the Irish ferries. They never shut down for anything

TurquoiseBaubles · 20/12/2020 19:32

Argggghhhh, I blinked and this happened Shock

www.rte.ie/news/2020/1220/1185542-covid-19/

I didn't think UK/Ireland travel would ever be impacted, not really. I wonder will Arlene shut the RestOfUK/NI borders?

RedToothBrush · 20/12/2020 19:34

@ListeningQuietly

RTB I had a message from BCF where she implied its been in Germany for a while

My kids teased me about my cheddar stockpile - now they believe me Sad

Its just being reported that the German government have said that the new strain is fine with the vaccine. So they must have been looking at it for a while...

...but all these EU countries have still decided to close borders.

Its quite ominous and not for covid related reasons.

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PussyCatInChristmasStockings · 20/12/2020 19:34

Tokyo, how many changed trains at Crewe? 🤦🏻‍♀️

PussyCatInChristmasStockings · 20/12/2020 19:35

Red it does give them a blame-free dry run at a hard brexit, doesn't it?
And it gives us a hefty dose of reality.

mrslaughan · 20/12/2020 19:38

LQ seems you maybe wrong about freight - it gives me no pleasure in reporting that....

twitter.com/pippacrerar/status/1340739289185984512?s=21

TonMoulin · 20/12/2020 19:38

Yep that’s a possibility.

TokyoSushi · 20/12/2020 19:38

It appears that we've scuppered any last remaining good will that the EU had towards us.

AuldAlliance · 20/12/2020 19:39

Le Monde reporting that the suspension is to allow EU member states to plan:
a coordinated response on traffic from UK-->EU
restarting traffic as of the 22nd with obligatory Covid testing

OchonAgusOchonO · 20/12/2020 19:39

@TurquoiseBaubles - Fucking hell. I wonder will Ireland have the guts to cancel flights.

Flights are cancelled and only freight on ferries.

RedToothBrush · 20/12/2020 19:41

@PussyCatInChristmasStockings

Red it does give them a blame-free dry run at a hard brexit, doesn't it? And it gives us a hefty dose of reality.
Indeed it does. A perfect excuse.

Just as:

Hugo Gye @HugoGye
^Brexit talks officially miss European Parliament deadline for a deal... but continue tomorrow. UK govt source: "We continue to explore every route to a deal that is in line with the fundamental principles we brought into the negotiations." Subsidy controls a big issue, plus
Fish^

How can the uk government argue at hard border restrictions when they themselves have just imposed an internal travel ban on London and the SE?

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BlackeyedSusan · 20/12/2020 19:45

Got a delivery booked for tomorrow. Not writing coming. Waiting to see if it will come.

13luckyblackcats · 20/12/2020 19:46

Waves at @PussyCatInChristmasStockings

We have been very lucky in my little rural corner so far, but there has been a recent uptick and it's not looking great.

AuldAlliance · 20/12/2020 19:46

« Seul le fret non accompagné sera donc autorisé. Les flux de personnes ou de transports en direction du Royaume-Uni ne sont pas concernés », a précisé Matignon.

LeMonde: so unaccompanied freight is allowed to travel to the UK. Where it will presumably linger awhile before being loaded for onward transport, esp. in the case of freight arriving in Dover, etc.