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Brexit

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2020 21:35

What's the current state of play?

Welll.... (deeepppp breath)

We have a bit of a time problem. All these talks going on to the 11th Hour with a looming deadline causes a bit of a head ache.

For a deal to be completed we first have to agree a deal with the EU but there's also the small matter of getting it written up and ratified too. All before 1st Jan.

We've got a problem here though. We've past the point where this is possible by normal processes. By all accounts even getting a legal text written following an agreement in principle isn't possible in the time left.

And the formal process of then putting it into law on both sides of the channel is even more difficult.

In the UK parliament would still, in theory, have to scrutinise and ratify a legal document. In theory. In practice Johnson may be able find a way to bypass parliament and have government just sign it off. This might suit Johnson's interests - in the short term at least - as he doesn't get a Tory Rebellion from whichever wing of the party doesn't like the wording of an agreement. But you can see the obvious flaws in this plan...

Where it maybe more difficult is on the EU side. This has to be done by the Member States and the European Union. In theory.

If we can't get it done by 1st Jan, we have a gap period if there is no extension. Johnson has said he doesn't want an extension and has said he won't ask for one. And the mood in Europe wouldn't likely give us one anyway.

The long this drags out the more problematic this becomes because we need to find fudges to deal with it.

By all account the most difficult problem is the European Parliament as its said point blank that it will not vote on a Brexit Deal this year. Apparently MEPs are throwing a hissy fit over it and are insisting they all get time to properly scrutinise the deal rather than just rubber stamping a deal. Barnier is aware of the issue and has apparently agreed to a few weeks will be given over to debate on this in the European Parliament. A couple of weeks we don't have.

There is now a whole debate on how this is managed.

There's talk of an interim treaty as a sort of bridging treaty until the proper one is drawn up. Not a transition extension. But a transition extension. Trouble is, there's a few countries who don't want a delay/extension/call it what you will.

There's talk of a 'provisional application' of the Treaty by the EU. This would work if the European Council used its power to do this rather than going through the European Parliament. Thats basically the leaders of member states approving and then throwing it back to the European Parliament. Of course this leaves a fairly obvious big spanner that could later be thrown into the works at a date which would be pretty problematic if it were to happen... In practice this would tie the European Parliament into just rubber stamping a deal to avoid that, which is why they are throwing a bit of a hissy fit over this option.

The good news is that the deal won't need to be ratified all 27 countries internally, if they classify the deal as an 'EU-Only Deal' rather than what is called a 'Mixed Deal'. This means it escapes the risk of a rogue veto.

Of course, its never that simple - and the argument is that the European Parliament might end up being more difficult if national ratification process is bypassed... And the whole idea of a provisional treaty falls down on practical issue that there isn't time to write this necessary treaty by 1st January.

Then there is talk of a 'retroactive application'. This is essentially No Deal but with an aggreement to retrospectively apply whatever Deal is later reached.

Now imagine you are an importer / exporter who is buying and selling stuff in the interim period. Except you don't know what anything you are buying costs / or how much you have to sell it for to cover your costs.

This apparently could be dealt with if there was an agreement over this using GATT Article XXIV 5(c) - to not apply tariffs in this interim period. This would require both sides to agree to this. And whilst this might suit the UK it is a bit of a problem for the EU as it effectly gives the UK 'a cake option and not much incentive to finish a deal whilst leaving the EU with the appearance of 'blame'. (The EU ends up in the situation where they have to put a deadline on this and then be seen to be the ones being difficult if this isn't then met...)

Then there's apparently a 'standstill arrangement'. Which sounds like another form of extension option.

This does make the dynamic of the UK running down the clock into a bit of context and how if the EU want to look like they aren't to 'blame' in the eyes of UK citizens then it gets increasingly difficult. But this is at the risk of the UK triggering accidental No Deal if the EU just don't buy into the game the UK are playing over this.

My reading of this, does suggest that if Johnson is playing silly buggers and doesn't believe the EU will 'allow' the UK to no deal then this would explain the UK strategy a bit more. But it is REALLY high stakes and there is no guarentee that the EU won't just drop us in it, a deal just isn't agreed or the EU gets into a situation where they find a way to fudge the 'interim no deal period'.

It sounds like a complete and utter nightmare all round, and very much starts to look like the UK is really playing games here. It hurts my head.

See Jon Worth who did the original thread explaining all this:
twitter.com/jonworth/status/1338861719095898114

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44
ListeningQuietly · 20/12/2020 18:50

Mental.
Its their own citizens who will suffer most from this one

TonMoulin · 20/12/2020 18:51

@Mistigri do you have a link to that?

(Yes I might start to freak out there)

Sostenueto · 20/12/2020 18:51

Oops already been reported! What a shambles lolol!

TokyoSushi · 20/12/2020 18:51

So these are the sunlit uplands?! Confused

Choux · 20/12/2020 18:57

I can't put a link but it's here

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?
TokyoSushi · 20/12/2020 18:59

My fitbit sent me a congratulatory message yesterday that I had spent 120 minutes with my heart rate in 'the zone' - I had been sitting on my backside watching the unfolding T4 shenanigans, my heart rate 130 throughout 😳

RedToothBrush · 20/12/2020 18:59

My fridge is empty.
I have no cheese. Well I have six tonnes of mozzarella cheese. Just no christmas cheese.
There's not going to be any left by the time we get the shopping is there?

French news is worrying.

I also think thats the horse has bolted on this new strain... if it all over Wales already, its hard to imagine its not seeded in the EU yet too.

So the government's approach may well be backfiring...

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DGRossetti · 20/12/2020 18:59

www.bbc.com/news/business-55370313

Live shellfish exporters in England have warned a wave of form-filling, certification and tariffs will hit the industry in 2021.

Traders who sell live crabs and lobsters into the EU expect delays caused by bottlenecks and new rules.

(contd)

RedToothBrush · 20/12/2020 19:00

And my heads up on covid is pay close attention to Cheshire West and the M56 corridor...

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boatyardblues · 20/12/2020 19:02

Just when you think it couldn’t get any worse...

ListeningQuietly · 20/12/2020 19:02

Jeez, those poor drivers.
WTF are they meant to eat and drink for the next 48 hours ?
actually make it 72
and then there is the France night curfew

The ones I knew were a bunch of nutters but they are people

Mistigri · 20/12/2020 19:03

As far as I can see the freight boats are running.

Maybe tonight.

But a complete border closure (except containers) is being reported in the serious French press. This isn't rumour, if it's reported as fact in Le Monde it's from a reliable French government source.

ListeningQuietly · 20/12/2020 19:05

RTB
I had a message from BCF where she implied its been in Germany for a while

My kids teased me about my cheddar stockpile - now they believe me Sad

TokyoSushi · 20/12/2020 19:06

What do you think is going to happen to Cheshire West @RedToothBrush?

ListeningQuietly · 20/12/2020 19:07

Mistigri
You are right. The updates are popping up all over now.
I guess the Kent news sources were slack jawed like me and wanted to be sure.

What a SHITTY thing to do to those drivers
who have no social contact with anybody and just want to get back to their own countries

titchy · 20/12/2020 19:10

@ListeningQuietly

Jeez, those poor drivers. WTF are they meant to eat and drink for the next 48 hours ? actually make it 72 and then there is the France night curfew

The ones I knew were a bunch of nutters but they are people

The ham and cheese sandwiches they'll have to throw away soon...
PussyCatInChristmasStockings · 20/12/2020 19:11

@RedToothBrush

My fridge is empty. I have no cheese. Well I have six tonnes of mozzarella cheese. Just no christmas cheese. There's not going to be any left by the time we get the shopping is there?

French news is worrying.

I also think thats the horse has bolted on this new strain... if it all over Wales already, its hard to imagine its not seeded in the EU yet too.

So the government's approach may well be backfiring...

If it's all over NE Wales, Manchester and Stoke, how the hell is Cheshire not in T3?

I can post or meet you at the border and lob you a chunk of Wensleydale with Cranberries if you get desperate. Xmas Grin

ListeningQuietly · 20/12/2020 19:11

titchy
Not a big meal of choice for the Italians and Bulgarians Wink

RTB
Yup, Ferries to Ireland suspended too : the Land Bridge has fallen

Mistigri · 20/12/2020 19:12

DFDS are still boarding ferries ShockConfused, do they not know?

Some Belgian scientists on my twitter feed are saying they don't think the new strain is a big deal. U.K. govt don't seem to realise that all major European heads of state and their staff can read English. If they are getting their news from U.K. newspaper headlines, then closing the borders is really basic stuff.

PussyCatInChristmasStockings · 20/12/2020 19:13

That'll teach me to not refresh screen Blush

I suspect M6 corridor & Cheshire East will go the same way.

OchonAgusOchonO · 20/12/2020 19:14

What are they going to do about the lorries queueing up on the M20?

Ireland is putting arrangements in place for Irish people who need to be repatriated. I assume France will do the same for their drivers. Not sure what will happen with other nationalities.

13luckyblackcats · 20/12/2020 19:15

CWAC here. Quite worried.

ListeningQuietly · 20/12/2020 19:15

Mistigri
DFDS go to Belgium a lot
OR
they plan to berth up and let French customs take on French drivers
happy memories of drivers threatening each other with axes!!!

RedToothBrush · 20/12/2020 19:17

@TokyoSushi

What do you think is going to happen to Cheshire West *@RedToothBrush*?
Welsh minister says that the new strain has seeded throughout wales.

There is a brand new hotspot in Wrexham. Look at the covid map - zoom in on Cheshire West. The ward right next to Wrexham is part of the Wrexham hotspot.

Cases are up in Cheshire West by 70% in a week. They are also up 40% in Cheshire East, 53% in Warrington and 55% in Trafford. Thats different to the rest of the NW pattern. Also Warrington and Trafford would be the two places I'd be most concerned about in terms of travelling from London too. These are all relatively affluent councils and Cheshire West and East are both pretty rural - they aren't places to expect sudden large upticks in numbers - so far they have not had them. The pattern is much more reminescent of the one thats been going on in the SE in the last two weeks.

It might be pure coincedence but the fact thats the M56 commuter corridor too does make me wonder...

But its something that 'looks different' and its made me sit up an wonder if there is something going on.

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