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Brexit

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2020 21:35

What's the current state of play?

Welll.... (deeepppp breath)

We have a bit of a time problem. All these talks going on to the 11th Hour with a looming deadline causes a bit of a head ache.

For a deal to be completed we first have to agree a deal with the EU but there's also the small matter of getting it written up and ratified too. All before 1st Jan.

We've got a problem here though. We've past the point where this is possible by normal processes. By all accounts even getting a legal text written following an agreement in principle isn't possible in the time left.

And the formal process of then putting it into law on both sides of the channel is even more difficult.

In the UK parliament would still, in theory, have to scrutinise and ratify a legal document. In theory. In practice Johnson may be able find a way to bypass parliament and have government just sign it off. This might suit Johnson's interests - in the short term at least - as he doesn't get a Tory Rebellion from whichever wing of the party doesn't like the wording of an agreement. But you can see the obvious flaws in this plan...

Where it maybe more difficult is on the EU side. This has to be done by the Member States and the European Union. In theory.

If we can't get it done by 1st Jan, we have a gap period if there is no extension. Johnson has said he doesn't want an extension and has said he won't ask for one. And the mood in Europe wouldn't likely give us one anyway.

The long this drags out the more problematic this becomes because we need to find fudges to deal with it.

By all account the most difficult problem is the European Parliament as its said point blank that it will not vote on a Brexit Deal this year. Apparently MEPs are throwing a hissy fit over it and are insisting they all get time to properly scrutinise the deal rather than just rubber stamping a deal. Barnier is aware of the issue and has apparently agreed to a few weeks will be given over to debate on this in the European Parliament. A couple of weeks we don't have.

There is now a whole debate on how this is managed.

There's talk of an interim treaty as a sort of bridging treaty until the proper one is drawn up. Not a transition extension. But a transition extension. Trouble is, there's a few countries who don't want a delay/extension/call it what you will.

There's talk of a 'provisional application' of the Treaty by the EU. This would work if the European Council used its power to do this rather than going through the European Parliament. Thats basically the leaders of member states approving and then throwing it back to the European Parliament. Of course this leaves a fairly obvious big spanner that could later be thrown into the works at a date which would be pretty problematic if it were to happen... In practice this would tie the European Parliament into just rubber stamping a deal to avoid that, which is why they are throwing a bit of a hissy fit over this option.

The good news is that the deal won't need to be ratified all 27 countries internally, if they classify the deal as an 'EU-Only Deal' rather than what is called a 'Mixed Deal'. This means it escapes the risk of a rogue veto.

Of course, its never that simple - and the argument is that the European Parliament might end up being more difficult if national ratification process is bypassed... And the whole idea of a provisional treaty falls down on practical issue that there isn't time to write this necessary treaty by 1st January.

Then there is talk of a 'retroactive application'. This is essentially No Deal but with an aggreement to retrospectively apply whatever Deal is later reached.

Now imagine you are an importer / exporter who is buying and selling stuff in the interim period. Except you don't know what anything you are buying costs / or how much you have to sell it for to cover your costs.

This apparently could be dealt with if there was an agreement over this using GATT Article XXIV 5(c) - to not apply tariffs in this interim period. This would require both sides to agree to this. And whilst this might suit the UK it is a bit of a problem for the EU as it effectly gives the UK 'a cake option and not much incentive to finish a deal whilst leaving the EU with the appearance of 'blame'. (The EU ends up in the situation where they have to put a deadline on this and then be seen to be the ones being difficult if this isn't then met...)

Then there's apparently a 'standstill arrangement'. Which sounds like another form of extension option.

This does make the dynamic of the UK running down the clock into a bit of context and how if the EU want to look like they aren't to 'blame' in the eyes of UK citizens then it gets increasingly difficult. But this is at the risk of the UK triggering accidental No Deal if the EU just don't buy into the game the UK are playing over this.

My reading of this, does suggest that if Johnson is playing silly buggers and doesn't believe the EU will 'allow' the UK to no deal then this would explain the UK strategy a bit more. But it is REALLY high stakes and there is no guarentee that the EU won't just drop us in it, a deal just isn't agreed or the EU gets into a situation where they find a way to fudge the 'interim no deal period'.

It sounds like a complete and utter nightmare all round, and very much starts to look like the UK is really playing games here. It hurts my head.

See Jon Worth who did the original thread explaining all this:
twitter.com/jonworth/status/1338861719095898114

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52andblue · 20/12/2020 15:18

Not tin foil at at all @TurquoiseBaubles
Couldn't agree more!

TokyoSushi · 20/12/2020 15:56

What's going on with the EU's 'there has to be a deal by Sunday or it's all over' - is everybody just ignoring that now?

OchonAgusOchonO · 20/12/2020 16:00

@TokyoSushi - a deal needs to be given to Parliament by today if it's to be ratified by Jan 1st. If it goes beyond today, there will either be a period of no deal or the deal can be provisionally applied subject to ratification in the new year. Nobody is terribly keen on that option.

DGRossetti · 20/12/2020 16:05

Apparently the UK delegation can't understand why the European Parliament needs to get involved at all, which speaks volumes.

DGRossetti · 20/12/2020 16:19

So, there was a bold country that plundered the world. Appalled, God called for that country to face justice. However, Gods wife asked that she give judgement instead, and tasked the country to go abroad for a year and a day and return with the answer as to what the people really desired.

The country goes all over the world, asking everyone, but unfortunately, in a cruel authors twist, never bothers to listen to the answers.

Then one night, amongst a gathering of swineherds, who seem so merry and gay, the country watches transfixed - until all but one of the merry makers disappears into thin air, leaving a haggard old man.

Rigid with fear, the country hears the old man whisper the secret - what all countries desire - sovereignty over all others. Well 48% of them anyway.

Elated to have fulfilled Gods wifes task the country returned to court. Only because the country was man, they'd not really been paying attention. However, on the basis that had never been a problem before, due to their high birth, they just made up some shit.

Gods wife was pleased. However, it was only then the country realised the bargain they had struck with the haggard old man to gain sovereignty. With eyes averted they tried to consumate the tryst.

Seeing how the country was repulsed the haggard old man reminded of sovereignty, and stated that although they were old and haggard, it would make them a faithful partner. However, if the country so wished, they could become young an beautiful and forever cause the country to worry about their virtue.

After some careful consideration, the country realised there was indeed another way to escape this awful bind. They themselves could become old and haggard and undesired.

Or something like that. Better than Xmas repeats, surely ?

OchonAgusOchonO · 20/12/2020 16:21

@DGRossetti - Apparently the UK delegation can't understand why the European Parliament needs to get involved at all, which speaks volumes.

Given their claims that brexit is about taking back sovereignty, rather than decisions being made by faceless beurocrats in Brussels, maybe they just don't realise that there are elected representatives who make decisions in the EU. That would explain a lot.

TheABC · 20/12/2020 16:24

news.sky.com/story/covid-19-ireland-france-and-germany-could-join-several-countries-banning-uk-travel-over-coronavirus-mutation-fears-12168375

What was that about a self-fulfilling prophecy? Plus, queues at Eurostar as people fear an imminent French travel ban.

I have just finished the final Christmas shop (we were going to visit DPs), including stock-up gin for January and bits for the food bank. Next month already feels surreal.

TokyoSushi · 20/12/2020 16:28

Thank you, super helpful as always!

DGRossetti · 20/12/2020 16:29

[quote OchonAgusOchonO]**@DGRossetti* - Apparently the UK delegation can't understand why the European Parliament needs to get involved at all, which speaks volumes.*

Given their claims that brexit is about taking back sovereignty, rather than decisions being made by faceless beurocrats in Brussels, maybe they just don't realise that there are elected representatives who make decisions in the EU. That would explain a lot.[/quote]
The old canard from Barnum can easily be repurposed to something like "No one was ever confused overestimating the hypocrisy of the English".

It's worth noting that the current crop of useless bastards and their sycophantic cronies wouldn't be here if we'd had a decent war in the 1970s or so. Either they'd have been leading their own cavalry charge into oblivion, or their yet-to-be fathers would have.

TokyoSushi · 20/12/2020 16:29

Another virtually 36,000 cases today it seems, it really feels like we're on track to disaster today (even more than usual)

DGRossetti · 20/12/2020 16:31

How would Ireland enforce a border ban ?

Also, what is to stop Ireland becoming a back door to the EU as people who couldn't give two fucks about the GFA pop to Belfast and then get a taxi to Dublin to fly on out to an EU destination. Like that fucking fucker cunt father of that fucking fucker cunt Boris Johnson is already planning on doing ?

OchonAgusOchonO · 20/12/2020 16:38

@DGRossetti - How would Ireland enforce a border ban ?

A ban from Britain would be easy. And if Arlene Foster wasn't more worried about being seen as unBritish than she is about people dying, an all-island approach would be sensible. There was cross-border co-operation for foot and mouth but that was money, so way more important than people's lives.

52andblue · 20/12/2020 16:50

@DGRossetti - that's very clever!

I have just had a text convo with a friend. Said I was checking the rules across the border as a single parent just into England and the Father of whose children (disabled) lives just across the Border in Scotland.
It appears to be ok even after Boxing Day as Rules allow parents of separated children to visit and also as a single person exH could be my support bubble (last resort frankly...)
Then my friend surprised me by saying that, regardless, they intended to travel (him, wife and adult son aged 24) to visit his other child (aged 26) in Durham. Week long trip. Why shouldn't we he said, after all, Cummings did similar. He works for the MOD. I was pretty stunned I must say (it was by text so I didn't have to 'reply'). Erk!

TonMoulin · 20/12/2020 16:57

@DGRossetti

Apparently the UK delegation can't understand why the European Parliament needs to get involved at all, which speaks volumes.
Well it makes them look bad doesn't it?

The faceless EU filled with beauraucrats is demanding votes from their members of parliment, with the assumption that said agreement will discussed and might be rejected

vs

a day max for the british MPs to read the same documents and the expectation it will just voted for wo any question....

It males you wonder who is more democratic there really....

DGRossetti · 20/12/2020 16:58

[quote 52andblue]@DGRossetti - that's very clever!

I have just had a text convo with a friend. Said I was checking the rules across the border as a single parent just into England and the Father of whose children (disabled) lives just across the Border in Scotland.
It appears to be ok even after Boxing Day as Rules allow parents of separated children to visit and also as a single person exH could be my support bubble (last resort frankly...)
Then my friend surprised me by saying that, regardless, they intended to travel (him, wife and adult son aged 24) to visit his other child (aged 26) in Durham. Week long trip. Why shouldn't we he said, after all, Cummings did similar. He works for the MOD. I was pretty stunned I must say (it was by text so I didn't have to 'reply'). Erk![/quote]
#CummingsCovid still has time to trend for #2020

TonMoulin · 20/12/2020 16:59

@TurquoiseBaubles

I can't stop thinking of those poor lorry drivers in the Dover queue. If France closes borders (which they might), will they spend Christmas in their cabs, surrounded by rotting food and piles of excrement Angry
I imagine there will be some specific rules for lorry drivers. Otherwise we wouldn't be able to get ANY food in.

I doubt the french or the EU will want to become the big bad wolf that is starving britain.

We might have even more problems having drivers happy enough to actually come to the UK though (see the fear of getting ill etc...)

DGRossetti · 20/12/2020 17:00

a day max for the british MPs to read the same documents

Most MPs won't read it anyway. After all we know they didn't read the WA.

Wasn't there something about needing debate in Parliament 21 days before trade deals can be rolled over ? Which hasn't happened yet ? (From a memory ages ago).

OchonAgusOchonO · 20/12/2020 17:02

I doubt the french or the EU will want to become the big bad wolf that is starving britain.

Given the only politician who has actually suggesting starving another country to get their own way is Priti Patel, that's probably a pretty safe assumption.

DGRossetti · 20/12/2020 17:04

I doubt the french or the EU will want to become the big bad wolf that is starving britain.

Here's something that may shock some. France, and "The EU" don't think like the English. They know that they may as well do the right thing and be slated for it, than try and do the nice thing and still be slated for it.

The only time I have seen Brexit discussed in antagonistic terms is in English forums. Even today, someone was saying how is the UK going to "retaliate" over the rules about personal imports. (But they were a Brexiteer, so thick as shit to start with).

ListeningQuietly · 20/12/2020 17:06

France will not close the border to Lorry Drivers
every country gave them an exemption right through all the lockdowns.

The problem at the moment is that LOTS of stuff was brought into the UK to be ready for both Christmas and Brexit
and then ALL the drivers are trying to get home before Christmas

A lot of those trucks will be empty
but its physically getting them onto the boats and trains that will be an issue.

The key thing for the UK is that once those guys get back to their homes
they will NOT want to return to the UK until they know what the rules will be

which will make restocking the shelves somewhat "tricky"

TheElementsOfMedical · 20/12/2020 18:34

which will make restocking the shelves somewhat "tricky"

So long as faithful patriotic ToryBrexitannianLeavers can stroll to their local artisanal farm shops, it'll be fiiiiiiiiine (the UnBeLeavers can eat squirrels).

Mistigri · 20/12/2020 18:38

France HAS closed the border to freight unless unaccompanied (containers).

If the U.K. govt has been exaggerating the issue with the new strain (which isn't unique to the U.K. - there have been cases in France and Denmark) then it has blown up in its face in spectacular fashion.

What are they going to do about the lorries queueing up on the M20?

Perfect storm brewing.

ListeningQuietly · 20/12/2020 18:46

Mistigri
As far as I can see the freight boats are running.
If they made all the trailers go across unaccompanied, there are no units to take them on their onward journey
and the EU drivers (particularly French) should be allowed across surely.

TokyoSushi · 20/12/2020 18:49

Yes just watching now, French ban seems to be on 'accompanied freight' - this seems to be quickly escalating...

Sostenueto · 20/12/2020 18:49

France extended ban on travel to and from UK to freight. Unaccompanied freight ( containers) can however continue. Initially ban for 48 hours. There's gonna be chaos lol!