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Brexit

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2020 21:35

What's the current state of play?

Welll.... (deeepppp breath)

We have a bit of a time problem. All these talks going on to the 11th Hour with a looming deadline causes a bit of a head ache.

For a deal to be completed we first have to agree a deal with the EU but there's also the small matter of getting it written up and ratified too. All before 1st Jan.

We've got a problem here though. We've past the point where this is possible by normal processes. By all accounts even getting a legal text written following an agreement in principle isn't possible in the time left.

And the formal process of then putting it into law on both sides of the channel is even more difficult.

In the UK parliament would still, in theory, have to scrutinise and ratify a legal document. In theory. In practice Johnson may be able find a way to bypass parliament and have government just sign it off. This might suit Johnson's interests - in the short term at least - as he doesn't get a Tory Rebellion from whichever wing of the party doesn't like the wording of an agreement. But you can see the obvious flaws in this plan...

Where it maybe more difficult is on the EU side. This has to be done by the Member States and the European Union. In theory.

If we can't get it done by 1st Jan, we have a gap period if there is no extension. Johnson has said he doesn't want an extension and has said he won't ask for one. And the mood in Europe wouldn't likely give us one anyway.

The long this drags out the more problematic this becomes because we need to find fudges to deal with it.

By all account the most difficult problem is the European Parliament as its said point blank that it will not vote on a Brexit Deal this year. Apparently MEPs are throwing a hissy fit over it and are insisting they all get time to properly scrutinise the deal rather than just rubber stamping a deal. Barnier is aware of the issue and has apparently agreed to a few weeks will be given over to debate on this in the European Parliament. A couple of weeks we don't have.

There is now a whole debate on how this is managed.

There's talk of an interim treaty as a sort of bridging treaty until the proper one is drawn up. Not a transition extension. But a transition extension. Trouble is, there's a few countries who don't want a delay/extension/call it what you will.

There's talk of a 'provisional application' of the Treaty by the EU. This would work if the European Council used its power to do this rather than going through the European Parliament. Thats basically the leaders of member states approving and then throwing it back to the European Parliament. Of course this leaves a fairly obvious big spanner that could later be thrown into the works at a date which would be pretty problematic if it were to happen... In practice this would tie the European Parliament into just rubber stamping a deal to avoid that, which is why they are throwing a bit of a hissy fit over this option.

The good news is that the deal won't need to be ratified all 27 countries internally, if they classify the deal as an 'EU-Only Deal' rather than what is called a 'Mixed Deal'. This means it escapes the risk of a rogue veto.

Of course, its never that simple - and the argument is that the European Parliament might end up being more difficult if national ratification process is bypassed... And the whole idea of a provisional treaty falls down on practical issue that there isn't time to write this necessary treaty by 1st January.

Then there is talk of a 'retroactive application'. This is essentially No Deal but with an aggreement to retrospectively apply whatever Deal is later reached.

Now imagine you are an importer / exporter who is buying and selling stuff in the interim period. Except you don't know what anything you are buying costs / or how much you have to sell it for to cover your costs.

This apparently could be dealt with if there was an agreement over this using GATT Article XXIV 5(c) - to not apply tariffs in this interim period. This would require both sides to agree to this. And whilst this might suit the UK it is a bit of a problem for the EU as it effectly gives the UK 'a cake option and not much incentive to finish a deal whilst leaving the EU with the appearance of 'blame'. (The EU ends up in the situation where they have to put a deadline on this and then be seen to be the ones being difficult if this isn't then met...)

Then there's apparently a 'standstill arrangement'. Which sounds like another form of extension option.

This does make the dynamic of the UK running down the clock into a bit of context and how if the EU want to look like they aren't to 'blame' in the eyes of UK citizens then it gets increasingly difficult. But this is at the risk of the UK triggering accidental No Deal if the EU just don't buy into the game the UK are playing over this.

My reading of this, does suggest that if Johnson is playing silly buggers and doesn't believe the EU will 'allow' the UK to no deal then this would explain the UK strategy a bit more. But it is REALLY high stakes and there is no guarentee that the EU won't just drop us in it, a deal just isn't agreed or the EU gets into a situation where they find a way to fudge the 'interim no deal period'.

It sounds like a complete and utter nightmare all round, and very much starts to look like the UK is really playing games here. It hurts my head.

See Jon Worth who did the original thread explaining all this:
twitter.com/jonworth/status/1338861719095898114

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DGRossetti · 20/12/2020 12:02

@DrBlackbird

The ERG's hardliners concerns: we will not vote for a deal that is not really Brexit... that really sums it up. What the hell is really Brexit?? They don't know either, but they're not voting for anything it isn't... We are completely screwed.
May I be the first to call "Bollocks".

They will vote for whatever they are told to - no matter what bellyaching they make.

They will vote, because if they don't and Johnson loses, we're into dead duck or General Election territory.

Also - with his majority, could Johnson do without them ? All of a sudden getting Labour onside to crush the ERG seems a possibility.

RedToothBrush · 20/12/2020 12:04

The ERG are the group of old farts down the pub who moan about everything just for the sake of it as they have nothing better to do. They probably are quite representative of the public in that sense.

But you could give them a glittering moon on a stick and they'd still moan. Because moaning is an essential part of their life's mission and identity.

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DGRossetti · 20/12/2020 12:11

@RedToothBrush

The ERG are the group of old farts down the pub who moan about everything just for the sake of it as they have nothing better to do. They probably are quite representative of the public in that sense.

But you could give them a glittering moon on a stick and they'd still moan. Because moaning is an essential part of their life's mission and identity.

A little moaning is good for society - if it's the right sort.

Moaning over why the fucking fuck we have homeless and hungry people in the worlds 6th largest economy being "good" moaning.

One defining feature of the past 9 months has been the total and absolute lack of any comment by all of society on how much that was "impossible" in February suddenly became the normal in April.

FrankieStein402 · 20/12/2020 12:26

Surely the 'new variant' is a natural consequence of lockdowns that didn't get the infection levels down low enough - effectively selecting for mutations that transmit with less contact.

But there are generally no selective pressures for worse effects.

Equally as yet there are no selective pressures for vaccine immunity - that will come if vaccine rollout is too prolonged or misses significant populations in any region.

RedToothBrush · 20/12/2020 12:26

Johnson is Disney Dad to the ERG.

Never ends well.

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DGRossetti · 20/12/2020 12:28

Surely the 'new variant' is a natural consequence of lockdowns that didn't get the infection levels down low enough - effectively selecting for mutations that transmit with less contact.

Possibly.

Possibly not.

No use telling me we know 99% about this virus - it's the 1% that would concern me.

HappyWinter · 20/12/2020 12:44

What would you give for John Major to be in charge now?

AuldAlliance · 20/12/2020 12:44

DGR, from what I've read, the French blocking statute that Claude Wehrle and colleagues are using is v old (1968), has only been used successfully once since it was voted, states that employees cannot be impelled to reveal commercial/technical information in foreign courts during legal proceedings and does not, according to the French embassy in London, prevent him from testifying.

The fact that he is a part-time firefighter has been mentioned a lot, IIRC.

It's because he's a non-UK resident that he can't be compelled to testify before the inquiry, but I don't think transition/Brexit affects that, TBH.

KonTikki · 20/12/2020 13:03

There was another thread asking who, of any prime minister since the war, you would vote to have running the country at present.
Rather interestingly Tony Blair won by a large margin, though he did get my vote.

RedToothBrush · 20/12/2020 13:05

When crisis spawn further crisis:

Bruno Waterfield @brunowaterfield
The government has created a mutation monster as the frontiers now shutting because of the scare - Dutch, Belgian and German travel bans so far…

^Marc Van Ranst, the Belgian virologist - and no stranger to sounding the alarm himself - has had 4 cases in his lab and sees the mutation as a “minor variant” only
“The new variant in England does not cause any additional concern,” ^

Belgium will close airports and Eurostar terminal from midnight for 24 hours as precautionary measure. “We don't have a conclusive answer yet,” said the PM De Croo

Dutch have stopped flights from 6am - again precautionary and CV-19 viand is already present in Netherlands “Apparently something has happened now that has made them decide to take additional measures,” said RIVM

“The moment they say something is going on here, you take this measure to be on the safe side because you want to prevent it from coming here,”

Bild reporting that Jens Spahn, the health minister, will go to the federal cabinet tomorrow with a flight ban regulation

What started off as a panicky government (perhaps) looking for alibis after cancelling Christmas seems to be spreading…

That prediction about eu haulage drivers being unwilling to come to the uk after 23rd?

You might want to fast forward it to... Oooo today.

(as an aside Eddie Stobbart have had a big outbreak in the last week at their depot NW Warrington. The one thats a stone's throw from the Warrington Farage Garage)

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quiteathome · 20/12/2020 13:12

I remember John Major sticking up for the Beef industry when we had BSE. I think he is the type of person that gets the balls when it really matters. He would be a good PM to have now. Could not be any worse.

I was reading a good Twitter thread about how the covid could have mutated, and the new strain. I won't try and explain it as will make a pigs ear of explanation. Thread is by Dr Eric Feigl-Ding on Twitter

HappyWinter · 20/12/2020 13:22

I'd probably go for Blair or John Major, although they are not without their faults, they were much better than we have now and politics was less divisive in those eras. My toddler could do a better job than Boris. At least they know how to share (by shouting "share" at us when we are eating anything like cake or biscuits...), they also offer their food to us which is adorable.

Boris couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery and never learns from his mistakes.

quiteathome · 20/12/2020 13:25

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55385768

European countries are suspending flights and trains from the UK (Which is fair enough). We will be cut off because of Brexit and Covid.

TheABC · 20/12/2020 13:28

I think the bellyaching by ERG is premature as we STILL don't know if there will be a deal to present to Parliament. I was going "awww" at the quotes in the Telegraph article; it's so sweet to think some MPs still trust Johnson to keep his word, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

On the plus side; at this rate we won't have to worry about the lorry car parks in Warrington or Kent come January as all transport connections to the continent will be closed.

DGRossetti · 20/12/2020 13:31

Once again, these threads will show I said 6 months ago that the jet-anywhere age was dead. Forever. And when it returns it will be very rich only.

DGRossetti · 20/12/2020 13:33

I think the bellyaching by ERG is premature as we STILL don't know if there will be a deal to present to Parliament.

Not quite sure why that's an issue - it's not like they'll read it, is it ?

Peregrina · 20/12/2020 13:35

We will be cut off because of Brexit and Covid.

Shouldn't that be 'Continent cut off' because we are speshul?

TurquoiseBaubles · 20/12/2020 13:36

I think (though it may be tin foil hat territory) that Johnson has shot himself in the foot with this new variant bollocks. I'm sure there is a new variant, but it's been around since September and quite likely isn't the main cause of the rise in infections - that is mostly caused by end of lockdown, Christmas shopping, and everyone relaxing in the run up to Christmas.

Everyone knows schools should have been closed a week early and a five day relaxation of rules should never have been proposed.

But rather than admit to having got it all wrong (again) it is a great excuse to blame a variant - but by doing that he's given other countries the excuse to stop travel and isolate the UK even further.

DGRossetti · 20/12/2020 13:37

@Peregrina

We will be cut off because of Brexit and Covid.

Shouldn't that be 'Continent cut off' because we are speshul?

Fog in channel. Continent isolated.
TurquoiseBaubles · 20/12/2020 13:37

I can't stop thinking of those poor lorry drivers in the Dover queue. If France closes borders (which they might), will they spend Christmas in their cabs, surrounded by rotting food and piles of excrement Angry

DGRossetti · 20/12/2020 13:47

@TurquoiseBaubles

I can't stop thinking of those poor lorry drivers in the Dover queue. If France closes borders (which they might), will they spend Christmas in their cabs, surrounded by rotting food and piles of excrement Angry
Ironically much closer to the original Christmas. Even down to the absence of JRM.
DGRossetti · 20/12/2020 14:02

Fuck.
Off.
Rishi.

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/12/20/home-workers-built-savings-must-go-spending-spree-pandemic-ends/

Home workers who have saved heavily during the coronavirus lockdown need to start spending heavily next year to restore the UK's economy, Rishi Sunak has said

(contd)

They'll find a way to sneak it out of tax, anyway.I'm guessing a revamp of council tax such that if it's possible to work from your home (i.e. it could have broadband) then you pay more council tax. Although it never does to underestimate how much work the Tories are willing to put into ensuring the poor stay poor. Herculean doesn't do it justice. Look at the bedroom tax.

ListeningQuietly · 20/12/2020 14:21

Afternoon all.
A perk of Tier 2 is that I was able to go to a Christmas market today and then have a nice walk in the sunshine.
Now its sausage roll and mince pie time.

boatyardblues · 20/12/2020 14:22

@DGRossetti

Fuck. Off. Rishi.

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/12/20/home-workers-built-savings-must-go-spending-spree-pandemic-ends/

Home workers who have saved heavily during the coronavirus lockdown need to start spending heavily next year to restore the UK's economy, Rishi Sunak has said

(contd)

They'll find a way to sneak it out of tax, anyway.I'm guessing a revamp of council tax such that if it's possible to work from your home (i.e. it could have broadband) then you pay more council tax. Although it never does to underestimate how much work the Tories are willing to put into ensuring the poor stay poor. Herculean doesn't do it justice. Look at the bedroom tax.

The Welsh government overhauled Council tax about 15 or so years ago and rates increased significantly. England pulled its punches, so the banding review is overdue in England.
DGRossetti · 20/12/2020 14:27

The Welsh government overhauled Council tax about 15 or so years ago and rates increased significantly. England pulled its punches, so the banding review is overdue in England.

How are you going to make up for all that lovely fuel tax, if you can't force people to drive to work anymore ?

Especially if you need to ensure you only make the poorest pay ?

I guess 100% tax on wheelchairs, white sticks and diarrhoea medicine is next ?

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