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Brexit

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2020 21:35

What's the current state of play?

Welll.... (deeepppp breath)

We have a bit of a time problem. All these talks going on to the 11th Hour with a looming deadline causes a bit of a head ache.

For a deal to be completed we first have to agree a deal with the EU but there's also the small matter of getting it written up and ratified too. All before 1st Jan.

We've got a problem here though. We've past the point where this is possible by normal processes. By all accounts even getting a legal text written following an agreement in principle isn't possible in the time left.

And the formal process of then putting it into law on both sides of the channel is even more difficult.

In the UK parliament would still, in theory, have to scrutinise and ratify a legal document. In theory. In practice Johnson may be able find a way to bypass parliament and have government just sign it off. This might suit Johnson's interests - in the short term at least - as he doesn't get a Tory Rebellion from whichever wing of the party doesn't like the wording of an agreement. But you can see the obvious flaws in this plan...

Where it maybe more difficult is on the EU side. This has to be done by the Member States and the European Union. In theory.

If we can't get it done by 1st Jan, we have a gap period if there is no extension. Johnson has said he doesn't want an extension and has said he won't ask for one. And the mood in Europe wouldn't likely give us one anyway.

The long this drags out the more problematic this becomes because we need to find fudges to deal with it.

By all account the most difficult problem is the European Parliament as its said point blank that it will not vote on a Brexit Deal this year. Apparently MEPs are throwing a hissy fit over it and are insisting they all get time to properly scrutinise the deal rather than just rubber stamping a deal. Barnier is aware of the issue and has apparently agreed to a few weeks will be given over to debate on this in the European Parliament. A couple of weeks we don't have.

There is now a whole debate on how this is managed.

There's talk of an interim treaty as a sort of bridging treaty until the proper one is drawn up. Not a transition extension. But a transition extension. Trouble is, there's a few countries who don't want a delay/extension/call it what you will.

There's talk of a 'provisional application' of the Treaty by the EU. This would work if the European Council used its power to do this rather than going through the European Parliament. Thats basically the leaders of member states approving and then throwing it back to the European Parliament. Of course this leaves a fairly obvious big spanner that could later be thrown into the works at a date which would be pretty problematic if it were to happen... In practice this would tie the European Parliament into just rubber stamping a deal to avoid that, which is why they are throwing a bit of a hissy fit over this option.

The good news is that the deal won't need to be ratified all 27 countries internally, if they classify the deal as an 'EU-Only Deal' rather than what is called a 'Mixed Deal'. This means it escapes the risk of a rogue veto.

Of course, its never that simple - and the argument is that the European Parliament might end up being more difficult if national ratification process is bypassed... And the whole idea of a provisional treaty falls down on practical issue that there isn't time to write this necessary treaty by 1st January.

Then there is talk of a 'retroactive application'. This is essentially No Deal but with an aggreement to retrospectively apply whatever Deal is later reached.

Now imagine you are an importer / exporter who is buying and selling stuff in the interim period. Except you don't know what anything you are buying costs / or how much you have to sell it for to cover your costs.

This apparently could be dealt with if there was an agreement over this using GATT Article XXIV 5(c) - to not apply tariffs in this interim period. This would require both sides to agree to this. And whilst this might suit the UK it is a bit of a problem for the EU as it effectly gives the UK 'a cake option and not much incentive to finish a deal whilst leaving the EU with the appearance of 'blame'. (The EU ends up in the situation where they have to put a deadline on this and then be seen to be the ones being difficult if this isn't then met...)

Then there's apparently a 'standstill arrangement'. Which sounds like another form of extension option.

This does make the dynamic of the UK running down the clock into a bit of context and how if the EU want to look like they aren't to 'blame' in the eyes of UK citizens then it gets increasingly difficult. But this is at the risk of the UK triggering accidental No Deal if the EU just don't buy into the game the UK are playing over this.

My reading of this, does suggest that if Johnson is playing silly buggers and doesn't believe the EU will 'allow' the UK to no deal then this would explain the UK strategy a bit more. But it is REALLY high stakes and there is no guarentee that the EU won't just drop us in it, a deal just isn't agreed or the EU gets into a situation where they find a way to fudge the 'interim no deal period'.

It sounds like a complete and utter nightmare all round, and very much starts to look like the UK is really playing games here. It hurts my head.

See Jon Worth who did the original thread explaining all this:
twitter.com/jonworth/status/1338861719095898114

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Sostenueto · 19/12/2020 22:39

On a different subject here's a list that might come in handy because of expected delays in transport.

vegsoc.org/cookery-school/blog/seasonal-uk-grown-produce/

Lonelycrab · 19/12/2020 23:06

Enjoy your martini LQ
There’s nothing we can do nowSad

boatyardblues · 19/12/2020 23:06

Assumes we have any pickers left in the country, Sos, and well enough to work too.

HappyWinter · 19/12/2020 23:14

It's been gaslighting the whole way through. Particularly with covid, in the summer with "go back to work, go back to normal" and Eat Out to Help Out. Then Boris was saying it had surged as there were too many breaches. Which wasn't true, people were generally following their guidance, it was their policy being wrong all along.

What a mess, why did we end up here? Hope everyone enjoyed the Boris press conference drinking games.

TatianaBis · 19/12/2020 23:16

The rum thing about Boris is that it turns out you can’t even rely on his libertinism.

I figured he wouldn’t lock down until after Christmas because he’s lax and wants approval.

The scientists have obviously given him Chinese burns behind the scenes.

Still not convinced about this more contagious lark until it’s objectively verified. I think the government may just be trying to cover themselves for the fact that they ended lockdown too early.

Arborea · 19/12/2020 23:16

I think as at 4pm Boris Johnson asked you to hold his beer. I have to hand it to him, it's one hell of a dead cat...

Ps I have struggled to find generic ibuprofen for weeks. Is it just me?

Pps the new regulations still haven't been published 45 minutes before they're due to take effect. Iirc the record is about 15 minutes before the deadline, so watch this space... www.legislation.gov.uk/new

Arborea · 19/12/2020 23:17

[quote Arborea]I think as at 4pm Boris Johnson asked you to hold his beer. I have to hand it to him, it's one hell of a dead cat...

Ps I have struggled to find generic ibuprofen for weeks. Is it just me?

Pps the new regulations still haven't been published 45 minutes before they're due to take effect. Iirc the record is about 15 minutes before the deadline, so watch this space... www.legislation.gov.uk/new[/quote]
That was supposed to be for Ochon...

prettybird · 20/12/2020 00:28

That BBC article about "no trade deal until there is a substantial shift from the EU" had a Government source saying "Unfortunately, the EU are still struggling to get the flexibility needed from member states" Hmm

They still don't get that the reason that the EU's Single Market is so valuable is because they work together Confused. It's not that they lack flexibility - it is that that they understand the need for unity and a common approach.

SwedishEdith · 20/12/2020 01:27

Lewis Goodall
@lewis_goodall
Dutch government announces prohibition of flights from the UK to the Netherlands, adding: “Over the next few days, together with other EU member states, it will explore the scope of further limiting the risk of the new strain of the virus being brought over from the UK.”

Jakub Krupa
@JakubKrupa

Replying to
@lewis_goodall
Sounds like a pan-European measure against accepting flights from the UK may be in the works EyesGrimacing face

Lewis Goodall
@lewis_goodall

Indeed...

JamieLeeCurtains · 20/12/2020 01:49

I think we always knew that covid was going to be a very convenient brexit and austerity smokescreen, but I'm actually surprised at how easily had been for the government to achieve this triple gaslighting feat.

JamieLeeCurtains · 20/12/2020 01:50

Sorry for the autocorrect grammar nightmare there ^^

tobee · 20/12/2020 04:53

Interesting to see BGR talking about a new strain blaring "but this one might be dangerous!" But it's the one in South Africa. Not the British one which is also mentioned in passing.

TonMoulin · 20/12/2020 08:17

I’m not surprised swedish
Who in their own minds would be happy to take the risk with another epidemy, potentially worse than the first.

Plus we’re not in the EU anymore. They are not going to take any risk for a third country

GaspodeWonderCat · 20/12/2020 08:21

Some good news

Children around the world should not worry about the logistics of Christmas present delivery while the coronavirus pandemic rages, Dr Anthony Fauci said – because he vaccinated Santa himself.

“I took care of that for you,” the top US infectious diseases expert told CNN. “Because I was worried that you’d all be upset.

“So what I did a little while ago, I took a trip up there to the North Pole. I went there and I vaccinated Santa Claus myself. I measured his level of immunity, and he is good to go. He can come down the chimney. He can leave the presents, he can leave, and you have nothing to worry about. Santa Claus is good to go.”

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/dec/19/anthony-fauci-vaccinate-santa-claus-coronavirus

lonelyplanetmum · 20/12/2020 08:39

I know everyone on here predicted, and will have seen, this time lapse footage.

But remembering the many pre referendum ' debates' with my Farage loving xenophobic FIL (who lives in Kent) I just very ungraciously wanted to say a symbolic I told you so, to him.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2020/dec/19/aerial-footage-shows-scale-of-lorry-queues-on-m20-to-dover-video?

bellinisurge · 20/12/2020 08:43

This is a fucking squirrel we could all do without.

Shrillharridan · 20/12/2020 09:24

Morning all.
Well.
Can't say I'm surprised about the latest govt clusterfuck nor the leaks about the EU meetings.
So my plans were made some weeks ago re: Xmas. We planned a quiet one anyway.
I've also been paying attention to LQ and her views on the lorry/haulage situation and I agree with her that it will grind to a halt by 23rd.
My no deal brexit stash is replenished and money has been saved.
Nothing more I can do.
So I'm wishing you all as merry a Christmas as you can manage and I hope we all have a better 2021.
Thank you for your company for the last 4 years.
The humour, level of reasoned debate and swearing has helped me enormously 😀
Take care xxx

TonMoulin · 20/12/2020 09:39

Ian Dunt

Don't dismiss the new variant as a PR ploy to cover Johnson's blushes. Experts are deeply troubled by it. The people who best understand what's going on seem to be the most anxious about recent developments.

twitter.com/iandunt/status/1340335195145334785?s=21

There are many many threads on Twitter this am about the how and what of the new variant.
The bottom line is ‘we don’t know yet’ and therefore is a possibility it will be an issue’ (I’ve learnt plenty on all the different variants existing in the uk and abroad, the difference with the South Africa variant etc... at the same time).

DrBlackbird · 20/12/2020 09:54

Flowers to anyone experiencing a rather crap Christmas

It is likely that we're facing no deal. At least for now. And perhaps, as LQ and others have said, this is actually what needs to happen.

Johnson doesn't believe in anything (EU or UK), but it is a badge of honour for JRM/ERG'ers to reject a deal. However, they need the press to frame it as the fault of the nasty EU being inflexible

And woe befall anyone on Westministenders threads to dare say 'I told you so' or to exhibit in any way, shape or form some tiny bit of schadenfreude because then you will be accused of being vulgar. Shock

Tanith · 20/12/2020 10:37

"Children around the world should not worry about the logistics of Christmas present delivery while the coronavirus pandemic rages, Dr Anthony Fauci said – because he vaccinated Santa himself."

Lovely man, to think of children when he must be so busy! Smile

DGRossetti · 20/12/2020 10:53

Don't dismiss the new variant as a PR ploy to cover Johnson's blushes. Experts are deeply troubled by it. The people who best understand what's going on seem to be the most anxious about recent developments.

Why would I dismiss something I thought had a greater than evens chance of happening 6 months ago ?

Anyone who was listening, not talking would have been prepared for this.

At what point - if ever - will people realise that just hoping something won't (or will) happen doesn't make it so ????

DGRossetti · 20/12/2020 11:02

Meanwhile, this caught my eye:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55382056

A self-described whistleblower at the company which made the cladding used on Grenfell Tower has refused new requests to give evidence to the public inquiry.

Claude Wehrle, who worked for Arconic, says he fears he might breach a law in France which prevents evidence being given to proceedings abroad.

An inquiry letter seen by the BBC reveals he is one of at least two employees who are holding out.

(contd)

anyone know if this is a peculiar French thing, or something connected to the impending end of transition ???

Peregrina · 20/12/2020 11:25

Oh dear the ERG are still not happy. Bring the split on, I say.

Although I sincerely hope that Starmer has the guts to get Labour to abstain on the vote if Johnson comes back with a Deal, so that it's entirely the Tories' deal to own. And in the unlikely event that it's a success, they can take all the credit.

DGRossetti · 20/12/2020 11:42

@Peregrina

Oh dear the ERG are still not happy. Bring the split on, I say.

Although I sincerely hope that Starmer has the guts to get Labour to abstain on the vote if Johnson comes back with a Deal, so that it's entirely the Tories' deal to own. And in the unlikely event that it's a success, they can take all the credit.

The golden thread running through Brexit is the utter cowardice of the ERG types who damn well know they'd never get a single vote if they didn't cloak themselves in blue.

And shame on the Tory party members that put up with them.

There will be no split. There never would have been either.

It's not really a great credit to Johnson and May that they folded where Major - John Major or all people had the balls to stand up to the bastards.

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?
DrBlackbird · 20/12/2020 11:48

The ERG's hardliners concerns: we will not vote for a deal that is not really Brexit... that really sums it up. What the hell is really Brexit?? They don't know either, but they're not voting for anything it isn't... We are completely screwed.