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Brexit

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2020 21:35

What's the current state of play?

Welll.... (deeepppp breath)

We have a bit of a time problem. All these talks going on to the 11th Hour with a looming deadline causes a bit of a head ache.

For a deal to be completed we first have to agree a deal with the EU but there's also the small matter of getting it written up and ratified too. All before 1st Jan.

We've got a problem here though. We've past the point where this is possible by normal processes. By all accounts even getting a legal text written following an agreement in principle isn't possible in the time left.

And the formal process of then putting it into law on both sides of the channel is even more difficult.

In the UK parliament would still, in theory, have to scrutinise and ratify a legal document. In theory. In practice Johnson may be able find a way to bypass parliament and have government just sign it off. This might suit Johnson's interests - in the short term at least - as he doesn't get a Tory Rebellion from whichever wing of the party doesn't like the wording of an agreement. But you can see the obvious flaws in this plan...

Where it maybe more difficult is on the EU side. This has to be done by the Member States and the European Union. In theory.

If we can't get it done by 1st Jan, we have a gap period if there is no extension. Johnson has said he doesn't want an extension and has said he won't ask for one. And the mood in Europe wouldn't likely give us one anyway.

The long this drags out the more problematic this becomes because we need to find fudges to deal with it.

By all account the most difficult problem is the European Parliament as its said point blank that it will not vote on a Brexit Deal this year. Apparently MEPs are throwing a hissy fit over it and are insisting they all get time to properly scrutinise the deal rather than just rubber stamping a deal. Barnier is aware of the issue and has apparently agreed to a few weeks will be given over to debate on this in the European Parliament. A couple of weeks we don't have.

There is now a whole debate on how this is managed.

There's talk of an interim treaty as a sort of bridging treaty until the proper one is drawn up. Not a transition extension. But a transition extension. Trouble is, there's a few countries who don't want a delay/extension/call it what you will.

There's talk of a 'provisional application' of the Treaty by the EU. This would work if the European Council used its power to do this rather than going through the European Parliament. Thats basically the leaders of member states approving and then throwing it back to the European Parliament. Of course this leaves a fairly obvious big spanner that could later be thrown into the works at a date which would be pretty problematic if it were to happen... In practice this would tie the European Parliament into just rubber stamping a deal to avoid that, which is why they are throwing a bit of a hissy fit over this option.

The good news is that the deal won't need to be ratified all 27 countries internally, if they classify the deal as an 'EU-Only Deal' rather than what is called a 'Mixed Deal'. This means it escapes the risk of a rogue veto.

Of course, its never that simple - and the argument is that the European Parliament might end up being more difficult if national ratification process is bypassed... And the whole idea of a provisional treaty falls down on practical issue that there isn't time to write this necessary treaty by 1st January.

Then there is talk of a 'retroactive application'. This is essentially No Deal but with an aggreement to retrospectively apply whatever Deal is later reached.

Now imagine you are an importer / exporter who is buying and selling stuff in the interim period. Except you don't know what anything you are buying costs / or how much you have to sell it for to cover your costs.

This apparently could be dealt with if there was an agreement over this using GATT Article XXIV 5(c) - to not apply tariffs in this interim period. This would require both sides to agree to this. And whilst this might suit the UK it is a bit of a problem for the EU as it effectly gives the UK 'a cake option and not much incentive to finish a deal whilst leaving the EU with the appearance of 'blame'. (The EU ends up in the situation where they have to put a deadline on this and then be seen to be the ones being difficult if this isn't then met...)

Then there's apparently a 'standstill arrangement'. Which sounds like another form of extension option.

This does make the dynamic of the UK running down the clock into a bit of context and how if the EU want to look like they aren't to 'blame' in the eyes of UK citizens then it gets increasingly difficult. But this is at the risk of the UK triggering accidental No Deal if the EU just don't buy into the game the UK are playing over this.

My reading of this, does suggest that if Johnson is playing silly buggers and doesn't believe the EU will 'allow' the UK to no deal then this would explain the UK strategy a bit more. But it is REALLY high stakes and there is no guarentee that the EU won't just drop us in it, a deal just isn't agreed or the EU gets into a situation where they find a way to fudge the 'interim no deal period'.

It sounds like a complete and utter nightmare all round, and very much starts to look like the UK is really playing games here. It hurts my head.

See Jon Worth who did the original thread explaining all this:
twitter.com/jonworth/status/1338861719095898114

OP posts:
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Blacktothepink · 19/12/2020 19:20

The announcement doesn’t take into account all the people working Christmas Day, like my dh, who celebrate it a different day.

baroqueandblue · 19/12/2020 19:25

My theory is that they led everyone to believe Christmas would be going ahead, for as long as they did, to manipulate them into spending money in preparation for it. Considerably more than they might've spent otherwise, and largely for nowt as it turns out. They've still got 4 years, and too many voters have the collective memory of a goldfish.

Probably full of holes, but personally I like any theory based on the premise "they are nasty, useless c*nts". As you were...

ListeningQuietly · 19/12/2020 19:32

baroque
Between DH and I we have one living parent in the UK
that person has been in a bubble with a sibling for months
but the bubble has just tested positive (and are ill)
so now we (Tier 2) have to decide what to do to support a vulnerable older person who is in Tier 4

its surreal

baroqueandblue · 19/12/2020 19:41

LQ I'm so sorry to hear that. I can't imagine what I'd do in your situation, there's no precedent and you could hardly feel that the guidance is either clear or reliable Hmm Whatever you decide, knowing you from your posts I'm certain it'll be the very best you can do under these crappy circumstances. Above all, I just hope you'll all be safe and feel some sort of togetherness, and that your relative will cope well with the virus 🤗

ListeningQuietly · 19/12/2020 19:48

Baroque
Its all part of the UK Govt gaslighting us on COVID as well as Brexit.

They are creating a blame and finger pointing culture
rather than a support and provide culture

The highest risk of all is multi generational meals in small family homes

something shits like Rees Mogg cannot comprehend

TonMoulin · 19/12/2020 20:02

Matt Hancock has mentioned that the new variant of Covid is much more contagious. But that we don’t know yet if the death rate is the same. And wether the vaccine will work with that variant.

There is also mention of contacting WHO.

I suspect this is why the South is now totally isolated. Because they are trying to contain a disease that MIGHT be a real issue.

ListeningQuietly · 19/12/2020 20:05

*I suspect this is why the South is now totally isolated. Because they are trying to contain a disease that MIGHT be a real issue.^
OR
they are stopping the News teams filming the omnishambles / clusterfuck heading towards the ports
cynical, moi

Sostenueto · 19/12/2020 20:08

So the vacinne is on sale online at 250 quid a shot. Anyone fool enough to buy it?

ListeningQuietly · 19/12/2020 20:10

@Sostenueto

So the vacinne is on sale online at 250 quid a shot. Anyone fool enough to buy it?
Knowing how that supply chain works .... yeah right and not a chance
baroqueandblue · 19/12/2020 20:27

OR
they are stopping the News teams filming the omnishambles / clusterfuck heading towards the ports

Definitely. No news is good news Angry

Mistigri · 19/12/2020 20:37

Well, what a mess.

Who still thinks we're no-dealing tomorrow? lol.

baroqueandblue · 19/12/2020 20:42

{raises hand} Me! Well, they've got the perfect cover story for everything going to shit, why waste it?!

ListeningQuietly · 19/12/2020 20:55

I admit that at this stage
we need
no deal
to lance the boil

mrslaughan · 19/12/2020 20:59

@DGRossetti

Chatter now starting in a few other forums from people who have to work in the SE in the New Year, and starting to realise that they're not going to escape the chaos in Kent.

Given the awareness on this thread, it's a reminded that 90% of the public really haven't a clue. They really haven't. It's not that anyone has hidden anything really either.

My sister lives in Kent - is very anti Brexit , but completely oblivious to the effects it will have on her. Apparently the road all the lorries go on are nowhere near her, so she will be fffffiiiiiinnnnneeee.....

I suspect I will be very soon having a conversation with her like I had today. Her husband had insisted that they must order there Xmas supplies from their favourite suppliers in London..... which means travelling in to collect.....now it seems like a very bad idea..... I mean seriously..... and she's bright....... but still married to her husband, so maybe not that sensible.....

bornatXmastobequiet · 19/12/2020 21:00

@ListeningQuietly

*I suspect this is why the South is now totally isolated. Because they are trying to contain a disease that MIGHT be a real issue.^ OR they are stopping the News teams filming the omnishambles / clusterfuck heading towards the ports cynical, moi
I vote for the not filming the omnishambles.
ListeningQuietly · 19/12/2020 21:01

Last post of the night (martini time)

I feel VERY VERY sorry for those who had hoped to spend time with family next week

I feel ultra sorry for my friend whose husband will die next week

I feel ultra ultra sorry for those who have been widowed this year

and face Christmas without a hug - for non COVID reasons

its shit
and our government are shits
who do not care

but sadly it has to get more shit
before it can get better

mrslaughan · 19/12/2020 21:03

Oh shit LQ - I feel fo you....

TheABC · 19/12/2020 21:07

So sorry to hear that, @LQ.
I have had two situations like that with family members this year. It's shit.

In am off to research the Bolshevik revolution. It should make me feel marginally less depressed

mrslaughan · 19/12/2020 21:09

LQ - I am frantically organising Xmas dinner ( well the supplies) for a DFriend whose sister died just over a week ago - she was young ( in her 20's) they will have two households together, and with everything haven't thought about Xmas. But I can't blame them....... to loose a daughter and a sister, within a year of loosing their father...... you need your family around you....

It's just so shit and it didn't need to be this way

Miaowse · 19/12/2020 21:13

From BBC news:

“Two parcel delivery companies are to suspend their operations in Northern Ireland because of Brexit.

DPD says it will be temporarily suspending its collection service from Great Britain into NI and the Republic of Ireland from 23 December.”

Don’t think supporting Brexit worked out quite the way DUP planned...

cherin · 19/12/2020 21:30

www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/19/brexit-trade-talks-may-continue-after-meps-deadline-says-france
Tomorrow might be another fake deadline...

MaxNormal · 19/12/2020 22:02

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55381322

Is this more posturing or are they genuinely planning to heap this amount of misery atop of misery?

OchonAgusOchonO · 19/12/2020 22:08

@cherin - yes. I saw that in some of the Irish news sources too. Talks will continue until 31st December. It will mean a period of no,deal until whatever they agree is ratified.

HannibalHayes · 19/12/2020 22:10

I.e. No trade deal unless 'substantial shift' from UK...

ListeningQuietly · 19/12/2020 22:19

Gaslighting
its all
Gaslighting
please search and understand
we are being deliberately shat on by our government

I am too tired to be as angry as I should be