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Brexit

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2020 21:35

What's the current state of play?

Welll.... (deeepppp breath)

We have a bit of a time problem. All these talks going on to the 11th Hour with a looming deadline causes a bit of a head ache.

For a deal to be completed we first have to agree a deal with the EU but there's also the small matter of getting it written up and ratified too. All before 1st Jan.

We've got a problem here though. We've past the point where this is possible by normal processes. By all accounts even getting a legal text written following an agreement in principle isn't possible in the time left.

And the formal process of then putting it into law on both sides of the channel is even more difficult.

In the UK parliament would still, in theory, have to scrutinise and ratify a legal document. In theory. In practice Johnson may be able find a way to bypass parliament and have government just sign it off. This might suit Johnson's interests - in the short term at least - as he doesn't get a Tory Rebellion from whichever wing of the party doesn't like the wording of an agreement. But you can see the obvious flaws in this plan...

Where it maybe more difficult is on the EU side. This has to be done by the Member States and the European Union. In theory.

If we can't get it done by 1st Jan, we have a gap period if there is no extension. Johnson has said he doesn't want an extension and has said he won't ask for one. And the mood in Europe wouldn't likely give us one anyway.

The long this drags out the more problematic this becomes because we need to find fudges to deal with it.

By all account the most difficult problem is the European Parliament as its said point blank that it will not vote on a Brexit Deal this year. Apparently MEPs are throwing a hissy fit over it and are insisting they all get time to properly scrutinise the deal rather than just rubber stamping a deal. Barnier is aware of the issue and has apparently agreed to a few weeks will be given over to debate on this in the European Parliament. A couple of weeks we don't have.

There is now a whole debate on how this is managed.

There's talk of an interim treaty as a sort of bridging treaty until the proper one is drawn up. Not a transition extension. But a transition extension. Trouble is, there's a few countries who don't want a delay/extension/call it what you will.

There's talk of a 'provisional application' of the Treaty by the EU. This would work if the European Council used its power to do this rather than going through the European Parliament. Thats basically the leaders of member states approving and then throwing it back to the European Parliament. Of course this leaves a fairly obvious big spanner that could later be thrown into the works at a date which would be pretty problematic if it were to happen... In practice this would tie the European Parliament into just rubber stamping a deal to avoid that, which is why they are throwing a bit of a hissy fit over this option.

The good news is that the deal won't need to be ratified all 27 countries internally, if they classify the deal as an 'EU-Only Deal' rather than what is called a 'Mixed Deal'. This means it escapes the risk of a rogue veto.

Of course, its never that simple - and the argument is that the European Parliament might end up being more difficult if national ratification process is bypassed... And the whole idea of a provisional treaty falls down on practical issue that there isn't time to write this necessary treaty by 1st January.

Then there is talk of a 'retroactive application'. This is essentially No Deal but with an aggreement to retrospectively apply whatever Deal is later reached.

Now imagine you are an importer / exporter who is buying and selling stuff in the interim period. Except you don't know what anything you are buying costs / or how much you have to sell it for to cover your costs.

This apparently could be dealt with if there was an agreement over this using GATT Article XXIV 5(c) - to not apply tariffs in this interim period. This would require both sides to agree to this. And whilst this might suit the UK it is a bit of a problem for the EU as it effectly gives the UK 'a cake option and not much incentive to finish a deal whilst leaving the EU with the appearance of 'blame'. (The EU ends up in the situation where they have to put a deadline on this and then be seen to be the ones being difficult if this isn't then met...)

Then there's apparently a 'standstill arrangement'. Which sounds like another form of extension option.

This does make the dynamic of the UK running down the clock into a bit of context and how if the EU want to look like they aren't to 'blame' in the eyes of UK citizens then it gets increasingly difficult. But this is at the risk of the UK triggering accidental No Deal if the EU just don't buy into the game the UK are playing over this.

My reading of this, does suggest that if Johnson is playing silly buggers and doesn't believe the EU will 'allow' the UK to no deal then this would explain the UK strategy a bit more. But it is REALLY high stakes and there is no guarentee that the EU won't just drop us in it, a deal just isn't agreed or the EU gets into a situation where they find a way to fudge the 'interim no deal period'.

It sounds like a complete and utter nightmare all round, and very much starts to look like the UK is really playing games here. It hurts my head.

See Jon Worth who did the original thread explaining all this:
twitter.com/jonworth/status/1338861719095898114

OP posts:
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ListeningQuietly · 19/12/2020 16:40

Black
I strongly suspect that the competent NHS bods will be arranging airfreight for essentials already
as even if there is no deal, those contracts with the EU factories will go ahead.

DGRossetti · 19/12/2020 16:54

@ListeningQuietly

Black I strongly suspect that the competent NHS bods will be arranging airfreight for essentials already as even if there is no deal, those contracts with the EU factories will go ahead.
Luckily there's absolutely no danger of a black market in dodgy supplies for desperate people opening up, or it would be a real worry.

(I wonder if Matt Hancock has learned what the MHRA does yet ? He certainly hadn't a fucking clue when my MP asked him. Admittedly not quite what the NHS administrator said in the letter I got, but I speak bureaucrat)

Dontlickthetrolley · 19/12/2020 16:55

@dontcallmelen

I agree LQ criminal that we have such a shower of Bunglecunts (my new favourite word, seen on another thread) supposedly governing the country.
You need to precede that with Hoof Wanking for the full effect dontcallme
DGRossetti · 19/12/2020 17:08

Chatter now starting in a few other forums from people who have to work in the SE in the New Year, and starting to realise that they're not going to escape the chaos in Kent.

Given the awareness on this thread, it's a reminded that 90% of the public really haven't a clue. They really haven't. It's not that anyone has hidden anything really either.

TonMoulin · 19/12/2020 17:17

Good luck @ArrowsOfMistletoe.
I’m dreading the time when I will have to do that.

DGRossetti · 19/12/2020 17:19

.

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?
Tanith · 19/12/2020 17:24

T-shirts, mugs and masks available from the Newsthump shop:

https://shop.newsthump.com

Peregrina · 19/12/2020 17:27

Too kind DGR - arseholes have a vital function, which can't be said for any in that list.

52andblue · 19/12/2020 17:28

Gaaaaahhhhh!!!!
(is all I have to say. Terribly erudite. Not)

mathanxiety · 19/12/2020 17:29

@TheABC

I find myself thinking more and more about the dissolution of the monasteries. That was a land-grab, wrapped up in a religious war that radically restructured English society. There were massive repercussions, some negative (poverty, rebellion, war) and some positive (the acceleration of the middle class and information sharing). I am wondering what we can expect in the longer term from this one?

Maybe it will be more like what happened in the 20th century iteration of the Tudor Reformation - i.e. the Bolshevik Revolution?

DGRossetti · 19/12/2020 17:33

The Reformation was why we had the so called "civil war". A war which ultimately made fuck all difference to the governance of England. We had a wealthy elite ruling before. We got a wealthy elite ruling after. And we still have a wealthy elite ruling us now.

Much like the US civil war looks like being, the British Civil War was a complete and utter waste of lives. Ultimately it changed nothing.

Discuss.

Pepperwort · 19/12/2020 17:48

Hilary Benn is resurfacing on Sky to state the obvious. Not heard much from him lately. news.sky.com/story/brexit-ministers-warned-about-overall-state-of-readiness-for-end-of-transition-period-12166622

ListeningQuietly · 19/12/2020 17:51

Hilary Benn's lot rather mauled Gove the other day
committees.parliament.uk/committee/366/committee-on-the-future-relationship-with-the-european-union/

But the press do not like to talk about it

ArrowsOfMistletoe · 19/12/2020 17:57

@TonMoulin it isn't scary. It's part of them growing up. Mind you, this is second time around for me. DD2 knows what she has to do in terms of grades - biggest challenge is a B minimum in A level biology, but it's possible and her teachers are on board. In Yr 12 I would have said no way, not happening, but her grades have really come up this year.

Pepperwort · 19/12/2020 18:26

Civil wars are often one group of elites fighting another. No one else can get the weapons and supplies.

mathanxiety · 19/12/2020 18:27

Irish companies also counting the cost of the incompetence and resulting chaos at the ports.
www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/irish-concerns-over-delays-at-ports-if-it-is-bad-now-it-will-be-standstill-in-january-1.4438852

www.imdo.ie/Home/sites/default/files/IMDOFiles/972918%20IMDO%20The%20Implications%20of%20Brexit%20on%20the%20Use%20of%20the%20Landbridge%20Report%20-%20Digital%20Final.pdf
Analysis of the issues posed by Brexit, published in June by the Irish Maritime Development Office.

Sostenueto · 19/12/2020 18:39

Well that's Xmas stuffed for many many people then. Merry Xmas Boris u bloody f...ing dickhead! 😡
We all knew u should have cancelled Xmas weeks ago but no you just had to make it 10 times worse!😡😡😡

OchonAgusOchonO · 19/12/2020 18:55

We can see the importance of upholding the GFA over the past couple of days. Irish ambulances are crossing over the border to assist overwhelmed hospitals in the North. Patients were being treated in the hospital car park in Antrim.

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 19/12/2020 18:56

Sos, if only Boris followed the advice on this thread on everything, the country would not be in the current mess.

ListeningQuietly · 19/12/2020 18:58

Sos
For those who had hoped to get together after a shit year
its ultra shit
if they had been honest at the start and said
Christmas is just another day
it would have hurt less

I hope you and your DGD are able to see each other either way

Words · 19/12/2020 18:58

Is there a Covid discussion thread anyone could recommend, now BCF is no longer amongst us?

Words · 19/12/2020 19:02
  • and yes the announcement is awful for so many. Five days was insane but he was too weak to do the obvious thing. 😡
ListeningQuietly · 19/12/2020 19:05

words
The data thread has carried on ....
and then follow those posters onto other threads

DGRossetti · 19/12/2020 19:13

Folk on these threads were warning about the Wetherspoon-driven rush to wellness 6 months ago. (Well I know I was).

The danger of a mutation popping up and spreading faster than we could catch it explicitly stated as not just possible, but probable.

Still we aren't cronies, so that was that.

DGRossetti · 19/12/2020 19:15

Can't be arsed to check, but were MPs sent home before this announcement ? Fancy that.