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Brexit

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2020 21:35

What's the current state of play?

Welll.... (deeepppp breath)

We have a bit of a time problem. All these talks going on to the 11th Hour with a looming deadline causes a bit of a head ache.

For a deal to be completed we first have to agree a deal with the EU but there's also the small matter of getting it written up and ratified too. All before 1st Jan.

We've got a problem here though. We've past the point where this is possible by normal processes. By all accounts even getting a legal text written following an agreement in principle isn't possible in the time left.

And the formal process of then putting it into law on both sides of the channel is even more difficult.

In the UK parliament would still, in theory, have to scrutinise and ratify a legal document. In theory. In practice Johnson may be able find a way to bypass parliament and have government just sign it off. This might suit Johnson's interests - in the short term at least - as he doesn't get a Tory Rebellion from whichever wing of the party doesn't like the wording of an agreement. But you can see the obvious flaws in this plan...

Where it maybe more difficult is on the EU side. This has to be done by the Member States and the European Union. In theory.

If we can't get it done by 1st Jan, we have a gap period if there is no extension. Johnson has said he doesn't want an extension and has said he won't ask for one. And the mood in Europe wouldn't likely give us one anyway.

The long this drags out the more problematic this becomes because we need to find fudges to deal with it.

By all account the most difficult problem is the European Parliament as its said point blank that it will not vote on a Brexit Deal this year. Apparently MEPs are throwing a hissy fit over it and are insisting they all get time to properly scrutinise the deal rather than just rubber stamping a deal. Barnier is aware of the issue and has apparently agreed to a few weeks will be given over to debate on this in the European Parliament. A couple of weeks we don't have.

There is now a whole debate on how this is managed.

There's talk of an interim treaty as a sort of bridging treaty until the proper one is drawn up. Not a transition extension. But a transition extension. Trouble is, there's a few countries who don't want a delay/extension/call it what you will.

There's talk of a 'provisional application' of the Treaty by the EU. This would work if the European Council used its power to do this rather than going through the European Parliament. Thats basically the leaders of member states approving and then throwing it back to the European Parliament. Of course this leaves a fairly obvious big spanner that could later be thrown into the works at a date which would be pretty problematic if it were to happen... In practice this would tie the European Parliament into just rubber stamping a deal to avoid that, which is why they are throwing a bit of a hissy fit over this option.

The good news is that the deal won't need to be ratified all 27 countries internally, if they classify the deal as an 'EU-Only Deal' rather than what is called a 'Mixed Deal'. This means it escapes the risk of a rogue veto.

Of course, its never that simple - and the argument is that the European Parliament might end up being more difficult if national ratification process is bypassed... And the whole idea of a provisional treaty falls down on practical issue that there isn't time to write this necessary treaty by 1st January.

Then there is talk of a 'retroactive application'. This is essentially No Deal but with an aggreement to retrospectively apply whatever Deal is later reached.

Now imagine you are an importer / exporter who is buying and selling stuff in the interim period. Except you don't know what anything you are buying costs / or how much you have to sell it for to cover your costs.

This apparently could be dealt with if there was an agreement over this using GATT Article XXIV 5(c) - to not apply tariffs in this interim period. This would require both sides to agree to this. And whilst this might suit the UK it is a bit of a problem for the EU as it effectly gives the UK 'a cake option and not much incentive to finish a deal whilst leaving the EU with the appearance of 'blame'. (The EU ends up in the situation where they have to put a deadline on this and then be seen to be the ones being difficult if this isn't then met...)

Then there's apparently a 'standstill arrangement'. Which sounds like another form of extension option.

This does make the dynamic of the UK running down the clock into a bit of context and how if the EU want to look like they aren't to 'blame' in the eyes of UK citizens then it gets increasingly difficult. But this is at the risk of the UK triggering accidental No Deal if the EU just don't buy into the game the UK are playing over this.

My reading of this, does suggest that if Johnson is playing silly buggers and doesn't believe the EU will 'allow' the UK to no deal then this would explain the UK strategy a bit more. But it is REALLY high stakes and there is no guarentee that the EU won't just drop us in it, a deal just isn't agreed or the EU gets into a situation where they find a way to fudge the 'interim no deal period'.

It sounds like a complete and utter nightmare all round, and very much starts to look like the UK is really playing games here. It hurts my head.

See Jon Worth who did the original thread explaining all this:
twitter.com/jonworth/status/1338861719095898114

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boatyardblues · 19/12/2020 08:09

I’m not following the Brexit news closely just now due to real life pressures, so I’m not sure what the Brexit issue is with sand eels. I just wanted to note that the rapid declines in puffin populations have been linked to falling sand eel numbers, their primary food source. If the proposal increases sand eel catches, that’s bad news for dwindling European/EEA (iIcelandic) puffin populations.

bornatXmastobequiet · 19/12/2020 08:32

Sand eels sustain seabird populations, so restricting that fishery would be a good thing. Not sure how important it is in the negotiations.

bornatXmastobequiet · 19/12/2020 08:36

Hi, lonely! Nice to see you and to be reminded of the Govian pigs’ ears fiasco, when Brexit was the only catastrophe on the cards. As you can probably imagine, I’m spending lots of time on education-related discussions at present. Happy Christmas!

SabrinaThwaite · 19/12/2020 08:48

Sandeels have been an issue for a while I think? The Danes fish for them for use in animal feed, but it is regulated to
manage stocks.

Interestingly, there are long standing agreements between the UK and Denmark which allows the Danes to fish in what the Brexiteers call “our” waters.

“The British claim of getting back your waters is a nonsense, because you never had them. Maybe for oil or gas but not for fish.”

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/18/denmark-to-contest-uk-efforts-to-take-back-control-of-fisheries

cherin · 19/12/2020 09:49

I find all of this unbelievably ridiculous. When all data shows it, and a national treasure like David attenbough spent years in telling us that we DO NOT own the planet, that we are ALL responsible for the fuck up conditions we’re leaving the earth in, in all countries, in all continents. When in my lifetime I’ve seen the difference in fish densities in the same beaches, with the same goggles (although declining eyesight). Who still cares about territorial waters??? We all know fish swims from here to there. Fishes are not british, or French, or danish. It’s all a political red bull flag waving. Despicable doesn’t start describing it...

cherin · 19/12/2020 09:50

The hypocrisy of this government is beyond belief. Green revolution indeed.

Whenwillow · 19/12/2020 10:08

Yes indeed Cherin

TheABC · 19/12/2020 10:21

I find myself thinking more and more about the dissolution of the monasteries. That was a land-grab, wrapped up in a religious war that radically restructured English society. There were massive repercussions, some negative (poverty, rebellion, war) and some positive (the acceleration of the middle class and information sharing). I am wondering what we can expect in the longer term from this one?

RedToothBrush · 19/12/2020 10:31

@TheABC

I find myself thinking more and more about the dissolution of the monasteries. That was a land-grab, wrapped up in a religious war that radically restructured English society. There were massive repercussions, some negative (poverty, rebellion, war) and some positive (the acceleration of the middle class and information sharing). I am wondering what we can expect in the longer term from this one?
I think that in some respects more turnip eating (growing your own and buying more local seasonal produce) will come out of this and thats a good thing.

Also people buying less shit. This is something that has to happen in the longer term anyway.

But that does come at an economic price. And thats the bit thats not pretty.

Brexit was always a power grab and the leave campaign was designed to be 'all things to all men' deliberately to have broad appeal. In the full knowledge that those leading it could be redefined and hijacked for the interests of those leading the campaign. I warned against this precise problem PRIOR to the vote.

Anyone standing by their vote on principle is a bit of a mug for that reason. There was never a way we could be untangled in the way proposed without it being a total fucking mess.

OP posts:
TheABC · 19/12/2020 11:54

You did indeed, @RedToothBrush.

I am coming round to the idea that Brexit will quietly die a death by a thousand cuts as new problems crop up and need to be separately negotiated. It's going to be the proverbial albatross around politicians necks. But practical necessity will dictate something closer and more messy than the No-Deal nivarna we are being fed right now.

Its just going to be tedious and painful to get there.

DGRossetti · 19/12/2020 12:06

@TheABC

I find myself thinking more and more about the dissolution of the monasteries. That was a land-grab, wrapped up in a religious war that radically restructured English society. There were massive repercussions, some negative (poverty, rebellion, war) and some positive (the acceleration of the middle class and information sharing). I am wondering what we can expect in the longer term from this one?
If you take the view that the current situation is directly related to the 1066 Norman invasion, then why on earth would you assume the Reformation doesn't have contemporary ramifications ?
Sostenueto · 19/12/2020 12:27

The M20 on sky just now lol! Queue from Ashford to the tunnel lol!

AuldAlliance · 19/12/2020 12:30

www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2020/dec/19/aerial-footage-shows-scale-of-lorry-queues-on-m20-to-dover-video

The ineptitude of those who have been warned about this since 2016 and have failed to plan for it beggars belief.

Peregrina · 19/12/2020 12:32

From the BBC site talking about today's papers:

Meanwhile, customs officers will be deployed by France on Eurostar trains from London to Paris to help monitor goods entering the European Union when the Brexit transition period ends on 31 December, the FT Weekend reports. Some 600 extra French customs officers have been appointed, the paper adds, and 300 more specialist inspectors at ports and other entry points. The paper says French officials are surprised at the administrative "mess" and lack of preparations on the English side of the Channel.

900 new jobs created in France. I wonder how many new customs agents we have recruited?

What was this about "We hold all the cards?"

TheABC · 19/12/2020 12:35

Good point, @DGRossetti.

ListeningQuietly · 19/12/2020 12:37

I just put it on another thread

but I still stand by my 23rd December prediction for when the lorries stop setting out for the UK
which means the shelves will not refill after Boxing Day.

If I'm wrong I'll buy a full round when we eventually have the WM meet up Grin

DGRossetti · 19/12/2020 12:40

I wonder how many new customs agents we have recruited?

Now in the old days, that would have been the bat-signal for the C'n'P brigade (all one of them) to swoop in with a squirrelling story about Michael Gove blurbling on about "50,000 new agents" dated sometime-when.

Hic silentii ipsos loquitur

Whenwillow · 19/12/2020 12:41

I am absolutely certain that you're right listening quietly
It's horrific seeing the reality of it in that video.
Those poor drivers Sad

OchonAgusOchonO · 19/12/2020 12:42

This has to be headline of the week:

www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/18/lorry-drivers-heading-to-eu-face-ham-sandwich-ban

DGRossetti · 19/12/2020 12:50

@ListeningQuietly

I just put it on another thread

but I still stand by my 23rd December prediction for when the lorries stop setting out for the UK
which means the shelves will not refill after Boxing Day.

If I'm wrong I'll buy a full round when we eventually have the WM meet up Grin

We've just got back from our weekly shop (we tend towards Sainsburys to acclimatise to the post-Brexit empty shelves vibe).

Busier than maybe 2 weeks ago, but not rammed. Nothing on our list that wasn't in stock (and I got a £2 refund on the cheese-from-hell from last week Grin)

Actually, tell a lie - no hide nor hair of their own brand Tartare Sauce (including not a channel ticket either) Hmm But it was in our "if we see one" part of the list.

So that's us tucked in till well after Xmas now. First Xmas for DS & his (Lithuanian) girlfriend with us. DW has started "mother hen-ing" a bit Grin

Certainly no sense of panic buying though. However I've noticed that some items that Sainsburys have decided not to stock anymore are also mysteriously off the shelves in other supermarkets. One to keep an eye on.

ListeningQuietly · 19/12/2020 12:51

I feel so sorry for those drivers.

During the 80's dock strike, the guys could walk into town and get food that they then cooked in the kitchens they have built into their trucks

  • watching the French and Italians producing three course meals with wine was impressive.
They set up picnic tables and had crockery and napkins and glasses.

But these poor sods are stuck on the motorway, creeping forwards at 1mph
so they cannot leave their vehicles
they cannot get a proper meal
they cannot move around

and they are just hoping that they get to the French / Belgian side in time to drive to their homes before Christmas

HappyWinter · 19/12/2020 12:58

We are definitely screwed if even Clav has given up on trying to find the silver lining of Brexit.

LQ I think you are right, they won't come after the 23rd and the stocks will start to run low after Christmas. It's hard to believe it at the moment with the shops so full and busy with the pre-Christmas shoppers, but logically it is probably going to happen. I have to remind myself to remember March and how fragile the JIT system is to any changes in supply or demand.

The poor drivers, that is not a fun run up to Christmas for them.

RedToothBrush · 19/12/2020 12:58

LQ I am working onn the assumption that the 23/24th is the last time we will be able to get stuff from the supermarket. I have a collection slot on the 23rd and we have a meat pick up on the 24th (which we will get cheese and DH will be ordered to get anything else I have forgotten / wasn't at the other supermarket). I am fully expecting a national lockdown for new year now and am now planning around that accordingly. I also want to try and avoid bellends who have decided that they didn't like Christmas 'scaremongering' and had 20 odd around for Christmas eve, christmas day AND boxing day.

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ListeningQuietly · 19/12/2020 13:05

My butcher will be selling ordered meat right through New Year

  • if nothing else because the cattle have already been slaughtered and are maturing in his chiller

I live near two Supermarket distribution centres so will keep an eye on their gates during my Christmas walks Smile

I've never had shopping delivered (I choose to leave the slots for others) so will check out the shelves as well Wink