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Brexit

Westministenders: A Turkey for Christmas?

968 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/12/2020 21:35

What's the current state of play?

Welll.... (deeepppp breath)

We have a bit of a time problem. All these talks going on to the 11th Hour with a looming deadline causes a bit of a head ache.

For a deal to be completed we first have to agree a deal with the EU but there's also the small matter of getting it written up and ratified too. All before 1st Jan.

We've got a problem here though. We've past the point where this is possible by normal processes. By all accounts even getting a legal text written following an agreement in principle isn't possible in the time left.

And the formal process of then putting it into law on both sides of the channel is even more difficult.

In the UK parliament would still, in theory, have to scrutinise and ratify a legal document. In theory. In practice Johnson may be able find a way to bypass parliament and have government just sign it off. This might suit Johnson's interests - in the short term at least - as he doesn't get a Tory Rebellion from whichever wing of the party doesn't like the wording of an agreement. But you can see the obvious flaws in this plan...

Where it maybe more difficult is on the EU side. This has to be done by the Member States and the European Union. In theory.

If we can't get it done by 1st Jan, we have a gap period if there is no extension. Johnson has said he doesn't want an extension and has said he won't ask for one. And the mood in Europe wouldn't likely give us one anyway.

The long this drags out the more problematic this becomes because we need to find fudges to deal with it.

By all account the most difficult problem is the European Parliament as its said point blank that it will not vote on a Brexit Deal this year. Apparently MEPs are throwing a hissy fit over it and are insisting they all get time to properly scrutinise the deal rather than just rubber stamping a deal. Barnier is aware of the issue and has apparently agreed to a few weeks will be given over to debate on this in the European Parliament. A couple of weeks we don't have.

There is now a whole debate on how this is managed.

There's talk of an interim treaty as a sort of bridging treaty until the proper one is drawn up. Not a transition extension. But a transition extension. Trouble is, there's a few countries who don't want a delay/extension/call it what you will.

There's talk of a 'provisional application' of the Treaty by the EU. This would work if the European Council used its power to do this rather than going through the European Parliament. Thats basically the leaders of member states approving and then throwing it back to the European Parliament. Of course this leaves a fairly obvious big spanner that could later be thrown into the works at a date which would be pretty problematic if it were to happen... In practice this would tie the European Parliament into just rubber stamping a deal to avoid that, which is why they are throwing a bit of a hissy fit over this option.

The good news is that the deal won't need to be ratified all 27 countries internally, if they classify the deal as an 'EU-Only Deal' rather than what is called a 'Mixed Deal'. This means it escapes the risk of a rogue veto.

Of course, its never that simple - and the argument is that the European Parliament might end up being more difficult if national ratification process is bypassed... And the whole idea of a provisional treaty falls down on practical issue that there isn't time to write this necessary treaty by 1st January.

Then there is talk of a 'retroactive application'. This is essentially No Deal but with an aggreement to retrospectively apply whatever Deal is later reached.

Now imagine you are an importer / exporter who is buying and selling stuff in the interim period. Except you don't know what anything you are buying costs / or how much you have to sell it for to cover your costs.

This apparently could be dealt with if there was an agreement over this using GATT Article XXIV 5(c) - to not apply tariffs in this interim period. This would require both sides to agree to this. And whilst this might suit the UK it is a bit of a problem for the EU as it effectly gives the UK 'a cake option and not much incentive to finish a deal whilst leaving the EU with the appearance of 'blame'. (The EU ends up in the situation where they have to put a deadline on this and then be seen to be the ones being difficult if this isn't then met...)

Then there's apparently a 'standstill arrangement'. Which sounds like another form of extension option.

This does make the dynamic of the UK running down the clock into a bit of context and how if the EU want to look like they aren't to 'blame' in the eyes of UK citizens then it gets increasingly difficult. But this is at the risk of the UK triggering accidental No Deal if the EU just don't buy into the game the UK are playing over this.

My reading of this, does suggest that if Johnson is playing silly buggers and doesn't believe the EU will 'allow' the UK to no deal then this would explain the UK strategy a bit more. But it is REALLY high stakes and there is no guarentee that the EU won't just drop us in it, a deal just isn't agreed or the EU gets into a situation where they find a way to fudge the 'interim no deal period'.

It sounds like a complete and utter nightmare all round, and very much starts to look like the UK is really playing games here. It hurts my head.

See Jon Worth who did the original thread explaining all this:
twitter.com/jonworth/status/1338861719095898114

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dontcallmelen · 19/12/2020 13:06

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RedToothBrush · 19/12/2020 13:12

Covid press conference incoming this afternoon...

bbc coverage from 3.30pm.

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Tanith · 19/12/2020 13:19

My brother used to be a lorry driver. They drink from the bottles on the way out and fill them on the way back. Always have done: it's the time constraints of the job. What do people expect them to do?

A shame some enterprising soul hasn't collected all the bottles and dumped them in the gardens of Farage, Redwood, Rees-Mogg et al.
A nice "Welcome to Brexit" present for them....Angry

quiteathome · 19/12/2020 13:19

Is there? When was the last Covid press conference on a Saturday? Wondering if they are actually going to announce a lockdown. Child 1 will be delayed going back to school in January. So it could be that.

Lidl was out of toilet paper yesterday. However I stocked up on chorizo and parmesan. Thinking about getting wine.

Tanith · 19/12/2020 13:21

Local schools, primary and secondary, have warned us to prepare for home working in the new year.

Peregrina · 19/12/2020 13:24

Now the ham and cheese sandwich ban - I can see a good business opportunity for traders near Calais to set up one stop shops to provision the lorry drivers for their onward journeys.

We hold all the cards, indeed.

TatianaBis · 19/12/2020 13:24

I think there may be a lockdown in the SE after Christmas and possibly more restrictions over the next few days and Christmas. But I don’t think we will lockdown for the moment.

There’s no hard evidence as yet that the ‘new’ strain is more contagious. It may just be the effect of lockdown easing + people going mad Christmas shopping, schools, unis not being closed + winter and everyone being inside.

RedToothBrush · 19/12/2020 13:27

A full April lockdown with schools shut looms.

I am going to a friends for a BBQ tonight (yep in December. Not that unusual for us tbf). Dh got a good steak yesterday in 'just in case' we don't get chance to do Christmas. We were going to spend Christmas with them anyway (all outdoors) but yeah...

...we shall see what this afternoon brings but I do think a presser on a Saturday is ominous.

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RedToothBrush · 19/12/2020 13:28

I am expecting lockdown to start on the 29th btw.

If its before then or there are travel restrictions, things are really bad on the 'shit we've fucked up' scale.

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TatianaBis · 19/12/2020 13:30

I think if we have tight controls January - March, come April things should begin to ease. We were only in lockdown in April because necessary steps weren’t taken earlier.

quiteathome · 19/12/2020 13:32

The last lockdown press conference was a Saturday? I think it was Halloween. I got quite drunk playing a press conference related drinking game.

ListeningQuietly · 19/12/2020 13:34

Our Winter Solstice meal and fire are organised.
In past years we have met up with friends on the evening of the Solstice.
The Solstice is the reason Christmas is when it is.
From Tuesday the days get longer again.

Blacktothepink · 19/12/2020 13:34

I got drunk playing a press conference related drinking game Grin

RedToothBrush · 19/12/2020 13:39

@Blacktothepink

I got drunk playing a press conference related drinking game Grin
RULES. I need the rules for this.
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bellinisurge · 19/12/2020 13:44

Rules of press conference drinking game needed as a matter of urgency!

HappyWinter · 19/12/2020 13:46

Just don't link it to Boris waffling. You'll be drunk half way through Grin

ListeningQuietly · 19/12/2020 13:48

If I have the Game rules I might even be able to bring myself to watch our Esteemed Leader

Blacktothepink · 19/12/2020 13:51

Come on quiteathome we need the rules of the press conference drinking game 🤣

RedToothBrush · 19/12/2020 13:51

Sunday Times journs (amongst others) circulating rumour of a t4 stay at home order for london and se over christmas.

Bubbles only in t1 - t3.

We shall see...

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HappyWinter · 19/12/2020 13:51

Alcohol would make it more bearable.

I don't think it will be good news, the next few months aren't going to be great. Looking forward to the spring.

bornatXmastobequiet · 19/12/2020 14:07

I was having second thoughts about visiting family (just me and DS, DDIL, DGC for one day only, possibly overnight) in London. A SE lockdown/T4 would in some ways make it easier for me.

I also think that the opportunist Johnson will see it as a good way to clamp down on civil unrest in the case of a disorderly Brexit.

bornatXmastobequiet · 19/12/2020 14:09

And I can’t drink alcohol at the moment! So no consoling myself with wine. I bought a tapestry kit, but I generally don’t have the skill or patience for such endeavours.

FatCatThinCat · 19/12/2020 14:10

Is the press conference definitely about covid or is he going to announce a world beating new trade deal with the EU (keeping quiet about all the red lines he's caved on)?

RedToothBrush · 19/12/2020 14:15

@FatCatThinCat

Is the press conference definitely about covid or is he going to announce a world beating new trade deal with the EU (keeping quiet about all the red lines he's caved on)?
Not sure whitty and valance turn up for brexit pressers... (its defo covid).
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dontcallmelen · 19/12/2020 14:19

It’s my birthday Tuesday, least one bright spot the days getting longer