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Brexit

Westminstenders: Governing by U-Turn

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/09/2020 01:45

Johnson's determination to get brexit done and to have 'a clean break from Europe' on terms which involve other countries happily returning fishing rights they bought from us (without recompense for the said previous purchase) in addition to the EU accepting terms they don't feel create a level playingfield and risk their economic future make any deal impossible. Our demands simply aren't achievable.

The alternative is adherence to the Withdrawal Agreement in which we are unable to bail out businesses via state aid and to have no deal which creates huge trade barriers and tarriffs overnight and massive customs red tape which we simply are not yet prepared for because the systems for running this are running behind schedule. This would lead to massive food shortages and Brexit lorry parks throughout the country for the forseeable future.

Johnson's latest bright idea is that he seems to think he can avoid chaos by a strategy which would cause even more chaos by deliberately reneging on the withdrawal agreement which is an international agreement just months after throwing a hissy fit for China doing exactly the same thing. This wouldn't just be hypocritical but would make a mockery of our credibility internationally and potentially endanger every other international agreement we've currently in place because well, why should anyone else stick to an agreement with the UK.

We could face years of legal wrangles with god knows which countries and businesses suing the British government.

But y'know Johnson thinks this is a sensible strategy and a cracking plan to force Brussels to blink first rather than actually take the subject seriously and do something in the country's interest rather than prevent Johnson from damaging his internal reputation with leave voters and because he thinks this is the correct hill to die on to prove he doesn't govern by u-turn. Johnson's ego seems more important to him than feeding the nation and having an international reputation.

Or he could do another u-turn.

OP posts:
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OchonAgusOchonO · 08/09/2020 13:03

Interesting article on RTE. Lots of very polite comments about trusting the UK to honour their commitments. Plenty of tougher comments too.

"I trust the British government to implement the Withdrawal Agreement, an obligation under international law and prerequisite for any future partnership," European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen said.

"Everything that has been signed must be respected," Mr Barnier warned, saying he would discuss it with Mr Frost.

Taoiseach Micheál Martin said the UK's trade talks with the European Union would be rendered "null and void" if the Withdrawal Agreement it signed up to is not implemented in full.

"The Withdrawal Agreement is an international treaty and we expect the UK government to implement and to adhere to what was agreed. We trust them to do so or they would render the talks process null and void", Mr Martin told the Irish Examiner in an interview.

"This would be a very unwise way to proceed," Minister for Foreign Affairs Simon Coveney said in response to the FT report.

Sinn Féin leader Mary Lou McDonald said the UK would show "total disregard for the lives and concern of the people of Ireland" if it backtracked on the Brexit deal.

Belgian MEP Philippe Lamberts said that without an explicit commitment from the UK that they "intend to abide by their signature" and honour the Withdrawal Agreement in full, there is no point in negotiating another treaty on the future relationship with the UK.

Mr Lamberts said the UK cannot "unilaterally clarify" something that has been agreed between two parties.

BigChocFrenzy · 08/09/2020 13:03

FT: full story of resignation

https://www.ft.com/content/6186bf1c-055b-4de6-a643-4eea763e1b94

Jonathan Jones is the sixth senior Whitehall official to resign this year
amid growing tensions between the prime minister and staff at the top of the civil service.

Two officials with knowledge of the situation told the Financial Times that the Treasury solicitor and permanent secretary of the Government Legal Department
was leaving his position due to a dispute with Downing Street over its plans to challenge parts of the Brexit withdrawal agreement.

Those close to Sir Jonathan said he was “very unhappy” about the decision to overwrite parts of the Northern Ireland protocol,
part of the 2019 withdrawal agreement, with new powers in the UK internal market bill.

One person familiar with the events leading up to Sir Jonathan’s decision to resign said
it had followed months of tension over the handling of the Brexit negotiations and legal disagreements with Suella Braverman, the attorney-general
....
Sir Jonathan is understood to have been dissatisfied with Ms Braverman’s initial interpretation of the legal implications of a ‘no-deal’ Brexit,
and requested official advice from the government law officers - Ms Braverman, solicitor general Michael Ellis and the secretary of state for justice, Robert Buckland.
.....
the advice of the law officers was split, with Downing Street deciding to accept the advice of Ms Braverman.

The government is understood to have commissioned external advice which determined
the government, while free to legislate domestically as it saw fit,
would be in breach of international obligations if it legislated in contradiction to the withdrawal agreement

“Jonathan was one of the good guys,” said a person familiar with the internal deliberations.
“He’s a man of enormous integrity.”

< well of course he wouldn't fit in with the Brexiter crew >

mrslaughan · 08/09/2020 13:04

Yes - I liked that too Born. There seems to be a fundamental ignorance that by wanting to trade with people.... they will request things (standards/labelling/criteria that effect competition etc.....) they are not threats , they are the cost of that trade.

BigChocFrenzy · 08/09/2020 13:05

the UK cannot "unilaterally clarify" something that has been agreed between two parties.

Ah, but that is the EU bullying plucky "Little Britain" with logic & law

OchonAgusOchonO · 08/09/2020 13:09

@BigChocFrenzy

the UK cannot "unilaterally clarify" something that has been agreed between two parties.

Ah, but that is the EU bullying plucky "Little Britain" with logic & law

It's just not cricket is it?
OchonAgusOchonO · 08/09/2020 13:10

@BigChocFrenzy

the UK cannot "unilaterally clarify" something that has been agreed between two parties.

Ah, but that is the EU bullying plucky "Little Britain" with logic & law

I must say, I do like Mr. Lamberts.
DGRossetti · 08/09/2020 13:20

It would be an interesting employment tribunal that decided a decision not to break the law (we need to remember that international treaties become national law) was justification for dismissal. Sir JJ might have grounds for constructive dismissal.

I ask again: what is the position of a citizen who is ordered to break the law - as laid down in an international treaty - even if their own government legislates to require it.

Not for nothing has "superior orders" started being researched from UK IP addresses ....

DGRossetti · 08/09/2020 13:36

Just drop a prediction here that "no deal" will be branded "Australia Deal" (handy having Abbot on board for that).

prettybird · 08/09/2020 13:36

At the risk of invoking Godwin's Law Wink, I thought the Nuremberg trials established that "following orders" was not a defence Hmm

I would think that there was indeed a case for constructive dismissal in Jonathon Jones' case.

ListeningQuietly · 08/09/2020 13:39

You could not make it up
www.gov.uk/guidance/grants-for-businesses-that-complete-customs-declarations
These grants will give you up to 200,000 euros

prettybird · 08/09/2020 13:41

The thing about even a "Australia" deal is that it would involve negotiating specific agreements/tariffs for specific narrow product areas. It might not be a FTA - but it is not the same as "No Deal" Confused

DGRossetti · 08/09/2020 13:49

@prettybird

The thing about even a "Australia" deal is that it would involve negotiating specific agreements/tariffs for specific narrow product areas. It might not be a FTA - but it is not the same as "No Deal" Confused
It is to the Brexiteers.

-"Let's have the same deal as Australia has !"

-But Australia doesn't have a deal.

-"Yup, that's the one. can you wrap it to go please ?"

www.politico.eu/article/phil-hogan-eu-trade-chief-australia-style-brexit-agreement-means-no-deal/

SunnyUplandsOhNoTurnipSoup · 08/09/2020 13:56

twitter.com/BettGunther/status/1264820968540770309?s=09

OchonAgusOchonO · 08/09/2020 13:59

Hogan's comment “We do not have an agreement with Australia,” Hogan said. “I think that’s code for no deal.” says it all really.

I'm sorry to see him gone. He's an arrogant gobshite but he was a brilliant trade commissioner.

Jason118 · 08/09/2020 14:02

@prettybird surely it is at the start - we start negotiations from the point of no deal to then try and secure specific trade agreements? So in Jan 21 our Austrailia deal will look the same as a no deal, unless something is sorted between now and then. Maybe there's an oven ready Australia deal waiting in the wings?

DGRossetti · 08/09/2020 14:07

So there you have it.www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/brexit/brexit-new-legislation-on-ni-protocol-will-break-international-law-brandon-lewis-admits-39513604.html

Northern Ireland Secretary Brandon Lewis has admitted legislation altering the Northern Ireland protocol, due to be tabled on Wednesday, "will break international law".

(contd)

I think there's a body of work to be done to draw up a list of the laws that we have no intention of abiding by.

OchonAgusOchonO · 08/09/2020 14:11

I think there's a body of work to be done to draw up a list of the laws that we have no intention of abiding by.

Might be quicker to make a list of international laws the UK will abide by.

DGRossetti · 08/09/2020 14:12

@OchonAgusOchonO

I think there's a body of work to be done to draw up a list of the laws that we have no intention of abiding by.

Might be quicker to make a list of international laws the UK will abide by.

Good point.

Let's call China.

ListeningQuietly · 08/09/2020 14:56

No country in its right mind will sign a treaty or trade deal with the UK after this
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54073836

DGRossetti · 08/09/2020 15:00

Where are all the Brexiteers now ?

I wonder which is worse. Breaking an international treaty by accident (if such a thing were possible) or telegraphing (a word I use very deliberately Grin) in advance that you plan to do so ?

SunnyUplandsOhNoTurnipSoup · 08/09/2020 15:11

"This feels a bit tinfoil hat, but ... is whoever is funding Johnson just... trying to break the country ? All faith in democracy / our international standing ... are they just showing how fast you can destroy a country"

Squid4, Peregrina, DGR, Darker
Seems to me it isn't just who is funding him - though they are - but who stands to gain from PM Johnson surrounding himself with no deal brexiteers and SPADs - Cummings, links to the far right, market speculators and the aim of a low tax, no regulation state helped along by who knows what interference from Russia as it has not been investigated... twitter.com/BettGunther/status/1264820968540770309?s=09
twitter.com/BettGunther/status/1228279980884463619?s=09
twitter.com/BettGunther/status/1264140549629587456?s=09

And then there is power - for itself - because for career psychopaths, the country's /public's interest are nowhere on their list of priorities.
twitter.com/brexit_sham/status/1302682241957605376?s=09

DrBlackbird · 08/09/2020 15:30

Conservatives used to stand for business. However, making money and doing actual business (the making of something, hopefully useful) has long ago separated in this country with production shifted offshore.

Now Tories, this gov't and their spads in particular, could not give one rat's a** about any of us. They just bully any civil servant with integrity out of office.

Sickening that all the power resides with them and their 79 seat majority that the voters handed to them on a plate and we can do nothing but watch this car crash of democracy and our economy happen in slow motion.

bellinisurge · 08/09/2020 15:33

Where are all the Brexiteers? I imagine they've all name changed because they are too embarrassed to admit what they've agreed to. Law breaking? Was that part of the oven ready deal?

DGRossetti · 08/09/2020 15:36

@bellinisurge

Where are all the Brexiteers? I imagine they've all name changed because they are too embarrassed to admit what they've agreed to. Law breaking? Was that part of the oven ready deal?
You underestimate the stupidity of these cretins. They'll just be blathering on about "the end justifies the means" with no appreciation of irony.

I think if ExtinctionRebellion wanted to embark on a path of lawless behaviour, they've just hit paydirt.

bellinisurge · 08/09/2020 16:24

I deal with tedious minutiae of the law every single fucking day. I now have the "fuck it" defence.