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Brexit

Westminstenders: Governing by U-Turn

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 07/09/2020 01:45

Johnson's determination to get brexit done and to have 'a clean break from Europe' on terms which involve other countries happily returning fishing rights they bought from us (without recompense for the said previous purchase) in addition to the EU accepting terms they don't feel create a level playingfield and risk their economic future make any deal impossible. Our demands simply aren't achievable.

The alternative is adherence to the Withdrawal Agreement in which we are unable to bail out businesses via state aid and to have no deal which creates huge trade barriers and tarriffs overnight and massive customs red tape which we simply are not yet prepared for because the systems for running this are running behind schedule. This would lead to massive food shortages and Brexit lorry parks throughout the country for the forseeable future.

Johnson's latest bright idea is that he seems to think he can avoid chaos by a strategy which would cause even more chaos by deliberately reneging on the withdrawal agreement which is an international agreement just months after throwing a hissy fit for China doing exactly the same thing. This wouldn't just be hypocritical but would make a mockery of our credibility internationally and potentially endanger every other international agreement we've currently in place because well, why should anyone else stick to an agreement with the UK.

We could face years of legal wrangles with god knows which countries and businesses suing the British government.

But y'know Johnson thinks this is a sensible strategy and a cracking plan to force Brussels to blink first rather than actually take the subject seriously and do something in the country's interest rather than prevent Johnson from damaging his internal reputation with leave voters and because he thinks this is the correct hill to die on to prove he doesn't govern by u-turn. Johnson's ego seems more important to him than feeding the nation and having an international reputation.

Or he could do another u-turn.

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RedToothBrush · 09/09/2020 20:44

An aside

There was an article that was posted way back when on these thread on how many members of the gestapo there actually were (weren't) enforcing social control. What controlled people was fear of the gestapo not the gestapo themselves in most cases. Not sure if this is the same one but it makes the same point.

www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/careless-whispers-how-the-german-public-used-and-abused-the-gestapo-1.2369837

16,000 employees for a population of 66 million

That differs slightly from the Stasi which was 91,000 for a population of around 17 million.

Both didn't work because of those primarily because of the surveillance of the organisation but because of how people reported people they didnt like for minor issues which were ultimately often trumped (sic) up.

I think this what i keep in my mind, especially when reading the thread in which people talk about their expectations and desire for more enforcement of the rules, and in the wider context of a public desire for authoritarian leadership...

Do i think the covid marshalls are like the gestapo? Nope. But conversations about this reveal something belong the surface of the mentality of the current british public which isnt altogether healthy.

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UnaOfStormhold · 09/09/2020 20:44

Icouldhavechecked that was definitely my thought too.

I confess I had completely forgotten the slogan - if pressed I would probably have come out with Marina Hyde's version, "Leave home, forget the NHS, save Pret".

But got it now: "Head, hands, space". First two parts I have lots of practice combining. The last part is increasingly tempting, if only I had the money for a seat on Virgin Galactic...

RedToothBrush · 09/09/2020 20:46

Maybe, but perhaps we’re crediting this bunch of eejits with too much intelligent deviousness

Or we are talking about trained and successful political election campaigners who are running the country outside election time in the same manner and know when to drop their dead cats to maximum effect.

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ListeningQuietly · 09/09/2020 20:53

Readybrek and the inner glow led to Windscale being renamed Grin

Mistigri · 09/09/2020 20:55

If this government is good at one thing its political messaging and diversion. But eventually they will run out of road.

Pepperwort · 09/09/2020 21:05

This thread is moving fast so it may have already been asked, but are there any lawyers about? Concerning this Internal Market bill...
"The following have effect notwithstanding any relevant international or domestic law with which they may be incompatible or inconsistent ...." and
"any other legislation, convention or rule of international or domestic law whatsoever, including any order, judgement or decision of the Europe Court or of any other court or tribunal".

Please do feel free to tell me I need to learn more about law (or anything), but in addition to the furore about breaking international law, does this not give the government the right to overrule any domestic law they fancy? And any domestic court?

borntobequiet · 09/09/2020 21:05

Once a very few people have carte blanche to imprison and hurt whoever they want to, people are very frightened and freedom disappears.

borntobequiet · 09/09/2020 21:06

other people become very frightened.

DGRossetti · 09/09/2020 21:07

@ICouldHaveCheckedFirst

Hmm, the Covid Marshalls remind me of something. What could it be? Ordinary people pointing out when other ordinary people are breaking rules. Is it the Stasi?
They might get called Society Assistants" or "SA" for short ?
DGRossetti · 09/09/2020 21:10

From memory and a bad grasp of German, "Gestapo" came from "Gerheim" for secret ?

(Be honest, I just googled and am pretty chuffed it was Geheime - not too shabby !)

mrslaughan · 09/09/2020 21:12

Mrs Norris hang in there.... I am in a moment of despair.... it's been lasting awhile....... but when it gets too much I take a mental health break from the news.

DH and his zoom - no mid life crisis, but the last fortnight he has had ridiculous levels of stress - and it's been really unpleasant having that in our home. The vibe it creates......effects the whole household.

On the testing - having just gone through having DS tested , and then pictures on the news of empty testing centres - makes me draw the conclusion that the lack of tests is intentional to try and hide the true extend they acceleration of cases. Just like all the data from public health England is not available tonight.
Every single one of them is despicable

mrslaughan · 09/09/2020 21:14

Are you on Twitter Pepperwort? David Allengreen would be a really good person to ask

Pepperwort · 09/09/2020 21:15

No. I hope some legal experts are going to comb this Bill. This is ludicrous.

DGRossetti · 09/09/2020 21:15

@ListeningQuietly

Readybrek and the inner glow led to Windscale being renamed Grin
I almost worked at Sellafield ...
LouiseCollins28 · 09/09/2020 21:19

I think I've stumbled across the model our magnificent "World Beating" (TM) Government is using for their "Covid Marshalls". They obvs got the idea from The Simpsons [Grin]

DGRossetti · 09/09/2020 21:22

"The following have effect notwithstanding any relevant international or domestic law with which they may be incompatible or inconsistent ...." and "any other legislation, convention or rule of international or domestic law whatsoever, including any order, judgement or decision of the Europe Court or of any other court or tribunal".

If you were trying to sneak an enabling act through parliament, it would probably look like this.

RedToothBrush · 09/09/2020 21:23

Pepperwort ill have a look. Georhe Peretz QC is probably a good first port of call

Heres a good first tweet on his timeline though. Remember the comments about level playing field and the WA not allowing state aid in a no deal situation, well theres also this:

Alexander Rose @stateaidlaw
And there’s the U-Turn on WTO subsidy rules.

^In March 2020, @TrussLiz said
the UK will “make the case to update the WTO rulebook to tackle... industrial subsidies”.^

But in September 2020, the UK is willing to adopt these deficient rules!
www.gov.uk/government/speeches/elizabeth-truss-outlines-bold-new-era-for-trade
Elizabeth Truss outlines bold new era for trade
Speech given by Secretary of State for International Trade to the WTO General Council, the first since the UK took its independent seat

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DGRossetti · 09/09/2020 21:23

and ...

Westminstenders: Governing by U-Turn
RedToothBrush · 09/09/2020 21:24

@georgeperetzqc

Im off to bed now but theres plenty on there...

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SabrinaThwaite · 09/09/2020 21:28

I almost worked at Sellafield ...

#me too (except it would have been mind numbingly boring and I had the infinitely more exciting option of blowing things up instead).

pictures on the news of empty testing centres

I’m getting the impression that it’s the on-line booking system that’s fucked up? Anecdotally people turning up at their local “fully booked” drive in centre are being seen with minimal waiting time?

Peregrina · 09/09/2020 21:29

The WTO is no longer quorate, so does this mean that the rules can't be updated? I don't know, I am asking in case someone does.

SwedishEdith · 09/09/2020 21:43

Faisal Islam
@faisalislam

Escalating now...
Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi:

“The U.K. must respect the Northern Ireland Protocol as signed with the EU ..If the U.K. violates that international treaty/ undermines GFA ..there will be absolutely no chance of a U.S.-U.K. trade agreement passing Congress”.

twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1303785686567444480?s=20

ListeningQuietly · 09/09/2020 21:46

Peregrina
The WTO is no longer quorate, so does this mean that the rules can't be updated? I don't know, I am asking in case someone does.
The dispute resolution panel is non functional
but the WTO Secretariat is ticking along in the background