Westminstenders: Where are we now?

[RedToothBrush]

Twenty thousand people
Cross Bösebrücke
Fingers are crossed
Just in case
Walking the dead

Where are we now, where are we now?
The moment you know, you know, you know

Just that.

Don't really want to reflect more than that right now.

The problem with the guidance for schools isn't just that it comes out at 7 pm for implementation at 8 am the next day. It's that the guidance is on a par with War and Peace, it's not just a few pages. On top of that they are making changes to it and reissuing pretty much every day, and they don't say what the changes are, they just reissue the whole brick and schools have to identify the changes and make those changes in time for start the next day.

The @NFUtweets online petition on food standards after #Brexit has topped 1m signatures.

That's nice dear. Let us know when it tops 6 million, will you. There's a sweetie.

I must admit that I'm torn on the NFU's petition about standards. On the one hand I don't want to see a reduction in food or animal welfare standards. But on the other hand farmers voted for this and are only panicking now that it's beginning to sink in that it'll hurt them. They didn't give a shit when they thought it would hurt others.

I must admit that I'm torn on the NFU's petition about standards. On the one hand I don't want to see a reduction in food or animal welfare standards. But on the other hand farmers voted for this and are only panicking now that it's beginning to sink in that it'll hurt them. They didn't give a shit when they thought it would hurt others.

I just think it's hilarious in a way. They have seen a six fucking million petition disappear like summer frost, and yet they think their pathetic "a million" signature petition will somehow achieve more.

It's like seeing your nan try to get a wheel nut off a car with her knitting needle, after a bodybuilder with a brace couldn't do it.

In one of my old jobs I was in a team that had to pull all nighters twice a year. We'd still have to go to work normal time that day, and work all through the night often finishing as the others were coming in to start the next day. The deal was we didn't have to work the next day - management needed that work done and knew we'd be no good after nearly 24hrs in the office, let alone asking us to put a normal day in after that. I'd really not want anyone who's done that in charge of my DC tbh. I know my DDs head has practically been living at the school, I suspect DSs has too.

In one of my old jobs I was in a team that had to pull all nighters twice a year

I went for a job once (law firm) where the non-IT executive couldn't stop telling me what a "pie and a pint" place they were (I do hope that isn't their mission statement, as I'm outed ). The tech expert just nodded each time.

So, if there's an issue, we'll all work on it, until it's fixed - maybe have a break for a pie and a pint. Is that something you'd be able to work with ?

I just commented that well run companies didn't use overtime to paper over cracks in their processes ... which clearly cost me the role. (My agent said they rang him before I left the building).

I haven't gotten any more mellow as I've got older.

DGR the work culture in law firms is if you leave on time you aren't working.

It's a bloody hard industry and hours expected are nuts.

But it's extremely well paid and people who go into the industry know this.

If you said that at interview I'm not even slightly surprised that you didn't get the job!

DGR it wasn't Local Govt was it??

No it was a private law firm.

I can assure you the role I was going for was not well paid - not by IT industry standards.

I had decided at the second mention of "We're a pie and a pint culture" that I didn't want the role. Bearing in mind (like DW) I went through a period where I went to interviews as a hobby.

I don't have the psychic strength to work in local government - my time at British Gas was enough.

My point still stands - if you rely on overtime, then you, my friend, aren't very good at business. You can only hide the fact because you've gamed the playing field by creating a "profession" (see also accountants).

When the CMM gurus came to GEC to sharpen us up, they claimed you could tell a CMM level 5 company from the car park. It would be empty after 5.

You're talking about City law firms. Plenty of law firms pay their lawyers not much more than minimum wage.

The City Firm 'all nighter' approach is said to be a product of decisions taken up to the wire due to need for public announcements, but predominantly is evidence of a macho culture. Deals with women leads (legal and commercial), whilst rare, usually were accomplished in more normal hours. That's my 20 years experience in the field.

DGR I loved my IT guys at work - Pete would always be in the pub at lunchtime and could be persuaded (bribed) into upgrades for a pint or two Ian was much harder work more expensive he really did need a pie!
You don't need to know what Ken got up to but it did involve a desk and the PA to the CE, forgetting to lock a door and the chattiest loveliest cleaner bursting in on them

"if you rely on overtime, then you, my friend, aren't very good at business."

I totally agree DG and this is the main reason I've worked mostly in Germany

The attitude here is that if you have to keep doing overtime, then either you need training,
or your workload needs reducing

The unions / works councils are strict about not forcing people to do overtime and all overtime is either paid or given back as flexi-hours

Standard working week is 37 hours;
my last place was 35 hours, with free rein on flexitime.

Presenteeism isn't a thing either
and even before the current crisis, coming into work when obviously ill was frowned on and you would be asked to go home.
(sick leave is normally full pay for the first 6 weeks)

Probably planning in sufficient detail would take much longer than an all-nighter
Also teachers and parents would need more notice than that to do something the next day

German school heads were given clear aims, advice and weeks to plan
Why must UK heads do it all overnight ? - only because of government omnishambles

So blame the generals, not the poor bloody infantry

My son is in a profession known for all nighters. He soon found out that it was because people rolled in whenever they felt like it and then spent half an hour faffing about and drinking coffee before starting work in a desultory manner. He made a point of turning up early, getting straight down to work and leaving at 5, unless begged to stay. People were amazed. (He also sorted a completely chaotic filing system in one firm, leaving coworkers amazed again at how easy it was to find things.) He was straight out of University at the time.

The attitude here is that if you have to keep doing overtime, then either you need training, or your workload needs reducing

I'm not talking about individuals, but entire organisations.

Yes to legal being "all nighter" territory and yes to it being with male leads. I worked for 2 senior partners in a large law firm in my early 20's and was always getting comments that they were "so glad you are young and don't have a family" because they would need "just a few extra hours tonight to sort these changes". Usually after working until 7/8ish themselves they'd be off "long drive home" or "wife being a pain" etc and just roll in knowing it would be on their desk tied up and ready to go.

I never got that once in 4 years working for a female senior partner. One week I worked my lunches and she bought me flowers!

I read this this morning www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/18/dominic-cummings-single-mother-support-bubbles. As a single mum I'm glad for the bubbles; we had grandpa up and it was lovely. However it does completely highlight a) who is making the decisions b) how little basis there is on science

Yes DGR, the two males worked in a large city law firm. The lady ran her own family firm in leafy Surrey. I never regretted the move.

I got a response for the Public Health job (I asked for constructive criticism). Apparently they had over 100 Masters applicants and therefore had to whittle down for interviews so I didn't make the cut. The top end of that salary was £25k. To put that into perspective I was earning that at 23 doing legal...

"The attitude here is that if you have to keep doing overtime, then either you need training, or your workload needs reducing"

DG That is the attitude of organisations here
Frequent overtime by individuals means something has gone wrong:
amount of work or efficiency in doing it

I've never come across an organisation here where it is more than individuals doing too much overtime

• because it is stopped from above and not allowed to spread to others and become part of the culture

My first boss in ICI was great: I was a graduate trainee and he said I was expected to work hard and occasionally to do more than standard hours but if I was consistently needing to work longer than "standard" hours even when working efficiently , then all I was doing was masking the need for extra resource

Another one of the really senior managers told me, "Always take your holiday allocation, because you won't get thanks if you don't"

I had it in events too actually. Female CEO was great. I worked on an event in China with 1 million attendees and she said she was grateful that I had admitted I needed at least 1 other person to do data entry. Company was bought out by a bigger firm 2 years later and I was working for a man who not only rang me during my mother's funeral but changed a large event to the morning after I returned from my 4 day holiday (we never too all of our holiday days at this point) so I rolled in at 4am was put up in City Hall and then had to start at 6am setting up. Of course he hadn't forwarded half of the boxes, one of which included my work shoes (spare pair had to be left at work for such short notice changes ) so I was running about in flip flops desperately trying to find an open shop at 7am. Just a couple of examples of his management style.

DH often has to pull all nighters..... and I am sure that the teaching profession would be happy too if they were paid what he is........

While I get the love for female bosses, one of the most vile women I have ever met was my boss for a while ...

Yeah they aren't immune DGR, I had a female boss as a telemarketer (lasted 2 weeks) who used to shout constantly. The straw broke when I was on a call and she stood behind me and bellowed "I don't want to see you hang up unless you hear a fucking AMBULANCE pull up in the background" the company I was calling heard, I handed her the phone to explain and typed out my notice that evening.

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