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Brexit

Westminstenders: Just another DEADline

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/06/2020 10:26

Today is the last scheduled day for talks with the EU.

We have til 30th June to ask for a transition extension. We won't.

That leaves us starring down the barrel of a no deal exit, when we still could be in a covid-19 crisis and the US may be in turmoil given recent events and the coming election...

It's not a pretty picture.

OP posts:
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RedToothBrush · 05/06/2020 23:56

Centrists that sat on their hands last December, now scream in horror that the country is a mess

It wasn't December they sat on hands. It was when May's deal was on the table in March and they were determined to gamble No Deal for the chance to maybe get Remain. They were obsessed by the idea that they could 'win' which was such a privileged position to work from as its not them who had most to lose if they lost. It was people at the bottom end of the scale who will bare the brunt of it. The failure to get a deal led to May being ousted and that in turn to the future being put in the hands of the Conservative Party membership. This wasn't something that was difficult to anticipate. I said at the time I feared we would look back in retrospect and see the moment squandered.

All parties indulged themselves in petty party political bullshit. None of them come up smelling of roses on the subject. It wasn't a Corbyn issue. It wasn't a Remoaner issue. It wasn't a Tory Rebel issue. Not a DUP issue. Nor even (ironically in retrospect given their current unhappiness at Johnson's plans) an ERG issue. It was the whole fucking lot of them. It became about idealism not pragmatism and a failure to realise what was at stake. They didn't spot the moment that was most important.

Ultimately people will throw this crap about the centrists and hating Corbyn and then siding with the hardright etc etc, but by the time of the December election it was already a long way past that. The reality was public were fed up of the Westminster Soap Opera which didn't really care what the implications were for Doris from Stoke or Keith from Sunderland. They just wanted it to 'go away' as an issue. Not to 'get Brexit done' but just to have some certainty.

Covid-19 has well and truly fucked that up.

It's also why and how Johnson will push through No Deal, on the promise of that I suspect. And will use blame shift when the shit does hit the fan. Cos that's what he always does.

Its too easy to blame others for their failings rather than to sit back and look at your own failings and to recognise and move forward remembering that.

From personal experience you can't live in the past, you can only try to build the future. You drive yourself crazy picking apart the details of blaming everyone else for bad decision making rather than thinking where do we go from here now then.

Whilst the centre and left dwell dwell on remain / leave identities they are missing on what's important here and now in the present and what that means for the future.

OP posts:
pontypridd · 06/06/2020 00:03

Bigchoc - I can't remember what you said exactly, but I use this thread now to help me not fall into any other traps. RTB and the rest of you have helped me find more avenues to help with this.

I have a question:

Seeing that the world can see so clearly how our government lies and manipulates the truth - how can we trust that the recent election was an honest one?

DrBlackbird · 06/06/2020 00:04

People voted leave for all kinds of misinformed reasons. One friend because someone else told him how corrupt Brussels was. Another as a protest vote. Another because of reclaiming 'sovereignty'. Someone said 'the European project is broken' 🙄 Funny how most were men. Plus the crappy tabloids whipping up the xenophobic hysteria.

One friend said she looked at info about leaving and info about remaining but was no further ahead in understanding the issues so looked at who was supporting what side and on that basis voted remain. But she's an exceptionally logical sort of person.

Essentially this was a referendum that should have never been put to a public vote and on that basis I will never forgive Cameron.

Can we all move to New Zealand? Canada at risk from its longest undefended border now.

DrBlackbird · 06/06/2020 00:08

And agree that there's no way Johnson will ask for an extension. He's been recently accused of being weak. And remember this is all about him. Like Trump, his feelings matter more than what's right for an entire nation.

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 06/06/2020 00:14

Indicative votes. They all fucked it at indicative votes. All of them pretty much. Barely any of any colour budged into a well if we can't have x, y is acceptable frame of mind. As farcical as it was, that could have steered us into something a lot better. Though some of it was cake granted. Probably why I'd never make a decent party politician too.

Arborea · 06/06/2020 00:16

Re NI and Brexit, there are around 1.8 million people in NI (not to mention the diaspora) who were aware of, and discussing the reasons why leaving the EU would damage the fragile peace process, not to mention the economy before June 2016. As is sadly too often the case though, many other UK residents weren't listening...

To turn to something slightly more topical, I've been surprised at how little attention the Government's decision to draw up the Cummings childcare drawbridge for other parents has attracted - www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/coronavirus-laws-dominic-cummings-lockdown-childcare-relatives-a9542381.html?fbclid=IwAR0DOGE3AnQan_5eHRSzYeb_FETGKZ3gBXsjW_U4yDPbD3rUJmJCz9aPqGk

I can quite understand why the news has moved on since George Floyd's death, although I hope that attention will eventually come back to it - it certainly reinforces the message of '1 rule for them, a different one for everyone else'...

prettybird · 06/06/2020 00:23

I know some ill informed SNP supporters who voted (or were going to vote) Leave "because of TTIP" Confused I can't remember how often I had to disabuse such people of this: pointing out that we would get TTIP on steroids if we left the EU as the Conservative Party had already said it was happy with it - and that it was the other EU countries that were not and were insisting on protections eg for things like "national" health services Confused

I also knew (indirectly - but she wasn't alone) of someone who believed in the EU but was going to vote Leave assuming Remain would win because she didn't want to give that bitch the satisfaction of confirming that Scotland was "different" Hmm

mathanxiety · 06/06/2020 05:04

11. The GOP and Trump administration will do ANYTHING to stay in the Oval office....watch this space.

I don't think General James 'MadDog' Mattis woke up on Thursday morning, picked up the phone to The Atlantic, and ad libbed for ten minutes on the topic of the President and why he shouldn't be doing what he is doing at this point in American history.

Taking apart his statement is like pulling apart the books of the bible and ascribing authorship and order of appearance - I suspect there are paragraphs that he had committed to paper months ago, paragraphs that emerged during the covid pandemic, and very recent ones.

I also suspect he ran it all past other senior military brass both active and retired as well as friendly Senators, and conferred with them about additions made after Trump tear gassed protestors on the way to his photo-op.

When I joined the military, some 50 years ago, I swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution. Never did I dream that troops taking that same oath would be ordered under any circumstance to violate the Constitutional rights of their fellow citizens...

...Militarizing our response, as we witnessed in Washington, D.C., sets up a conflict — a false conflict — between the military and civilian society. It erodes the moral ground that ensures a trusted bond between men and women in uniform and the society they are sworn to protect, and of which they themselves are a part...

...We know that we are better than the abuse of executive authority that we witnessed in Lafayette Square. We must reject and hold accountable those in office who would make a mockery of our Constitution...

...Only by adopting a new path — which means, in truth, returning to the original path of our founding ideals — will we again be a country admired and respected at home and abroad.
www.npr.org/2020/06/04/869262728/read-the-full-statement-from-jim-mattis

A direct accusation of 'abuse of executive authority' and an exhortation to defend the Constitution and by extension the rights of citizens is not something a retired General and former Defence Secretary does on his own initiative. It is very unlikely that he has gone rogue. This is a concerted warning to Donald Trump.

Hot on the heels of Mattis' statement came this, from former White House Chief of Staff John Kelly -
"There is a concern, I think an awful big concern, that the partisanship has gotten out of hand, the tribal thing has gotten out of hand,"...
..."I think we need to look harder at who we elect," Kelly said on Friday. "I think we should look at people that are running for office and put them through the filter: What is their character like? What are their ethics?"
www.cnn.com/2020/06/05/politics/john-kelly-agrees-with-jim-mattis-on-trump/index.html

There may well be a possibility that the GOP will give Trump the heave-ho instead of anointing him at the National Convention in August. There could also be the possibility that Trump would take his MAGA votes with him if that happens. The GOP is in a state of turmoil even moreso than the Democrats are.

The very unusual intervention of a retired general and Sec of Defense is a signal that the Armed Forces have read and understood the Constitution, are therefore loyal to the Constitution and the office of the President and Commander in Chief, but not necessarily the person of the President, and don't like what they are seeing or hearing when it comes to the role the current Commander in Chief believes the armed forces should play right now or in any future escapade he might decide to inflict on the country.

This all comes against a backdrop of troops from Fort Bragg (that I am aware of, probably other major garrisons) being placed on standby for deployment within the US.

mathanxiety · 06/06/2020 05:43

www.npr.org/2020/06/04/870004024/former-joint-chiefs-chairman-condemns-trumps-threat-to-use-military-at-protests

Retired General Martin Dempsey, former Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman weighing in with the same points and the same arguments Mattis used.

This was definitely a co-ordinated series of statements. They stayed on message.

www.nytimes.com/2020/06/03/us/politics/esper-milley-trump-protest.html
Long, but if you're interested a solid article on divisions in the White House which are now in clear focus, and the response of the military to Trump's comments on using the armed forces to 'dominate' the streets of American cities.

Again, the message is that the military should stay out of internal matters.

CrunchyCarrot · 06/06/2020 06:07

@KenDodd

So what have you do to try to rectify things?

I am disabled and pretty much housebound so cannot go on marches. I have written to my MP (who is a dyed in the wool Tory and Johnson supporter) with no discernable outcome, I've signed petitions. I joined the Labour party so I could vote in a better leader. I don't 'speak out on Social Media' as there are just too many people who want to attack and slur others over not only Brexit but many other things, and have no interest in listening. It's a very toxic environment. Instead I spend much of my energy trying to help others who have similar health problems to me and have been left on the scrapheap. I can make a difference there, and that's worthwhile to me, but it's a battle and my own health isn't good. If you don't have your healthyou cannot engage properly in anything.

I don't expect Remain voters not to be angry, that's fair enough. However I won't accept being called a racist. That's over the line. All Leavers are not identical clones, any more than Remainers, or indeed, those who never voted. Everyone has their own reasons for voting as they did, and that's fine. I'm looking forward, not backward because we cannot change the past. If others want to hate me, go ahead, but you are hating a faceless stranger about whose life you know nothing. That has never made sense to me. Hate my vote, not me.

mathanxiety · 06/06/2020 08:08

I think that is a very fair post, Crunchy. It's about hearts and minds and the long game now.

I honestly think that people who flip a coin on voting day and don't even try to engage with issues are the big problem in the long term. People who don't pay attention to news, who don't seek out information, vote on a whim, and politicians know they can get away with anything because of the shortness of many voters' attention spans allied to complete lack of understanding of constitutional history.

Mistigri · 06/06/2020 08:17

Leavers voted for this, they need to own it and sort it.

They didn't really though did they (or not for the most part). It's Vote Leave that own it and need to sort it. Unfortunately Vote Leave is now more or less = the U.K. government.

I don't think it helps the sane segment of the population to constantly bash voters for how they voted in the past. No one, literally no one, voted for queues at ports, empty shelves and chlorinated chicken during pandemic.

DGRossetti · 06/06/2020 08:30

The referendum was a shit show. There were leavers who had good reasons.

Did they ?

Did they really ?

There are several thousands of posts in the Westminstenders series going back years, and every time a non trolling Leaver pops on, and is asked for the reasons for their vote, 99.9% of them have simply parroted meaningless - and bollocks - soundbites. "Taking back control" being the 3 word one that is trotted out like an incantation at a black mass. That's why it was refreshing that at least Crunchy had a definite and clear reason for their vote. Even now, there are esteemed Leave posters - veterans of the inforwars - who can't or won't articulate why they voted but just trot out the same tired slogans when they breeze by.

I am being a tad unfair. A handful of leavers did try to expand on the soundbites. But immediately ran into the problem that they were wrong. "Take back control" - we never lost it. Well we have now. When Uncle Sam say no - he say no. When Uncle Sam say jump - we say "how high ?". With the added indignity that 93.21% of Americans don't know or give a single (let alone two) shits about any UK-US trade deal. Not only is it not on their radar, it's not even in the same continent. The US is much more preoccupied with China. And the UKs only value to the US will be to leverage a better deal for the US against a crappy one for the UK.

My DB sometimes has to show people - real read blooded Americans - where Britain is on a map*. You think those people have got to the stage of trade dealing ?

*Not as unfair as it seems. You find Nebraska, Arkansas and West Virginia on a map in a second ....

Pepperwort · 06/06/2020 08:36

General rant alert - I think a lot of this pressure around "inform yourself" "educate yourself", "what have you done to improve things", "make a difference" is needlessly aggressive and individualistic in the first place. It comes from a place that refuses to acknowledge the size of the country. It's enormously simplistic about the amount of information out there on different topics from different perspectives. It refuses to acknowledge the difference that being born into less than ideal - white, middle-class, well-off, well-travelled, the correct social connections, no reason to think along different paths, etc etc - circumstance makes. It also is immensely insulting to those who merely live their own lives without bothering others: most "contributions" and "differences" are small low-key good turns in the community, not grabbing the political limelight. Northern Ireland issues were not well known outside Ireland. Perhaps it was discussed in your charmed circles, or in the Universities or somewhere. That knowledge was not in general circulation and attempts to tell me that it was are the same re-writing of history that has been complained about on here. There are groups - well off, privileged and powerful, even paid for it - who have some responsibility for educating and informing others, and refuse to do so, or instead spread misinformation, propaganda and lies. Save your ire for them, and stop participating in the dismissal of everything you are told by the lower classes, just because it doesn't use the same clever words and witty phrases. That is what led us into this sick state in the first place.

TatianaBis · 06/06/2020 08:41

The possibility slash likelihood of queues at ports and chlorinated chicken was all in the public domain well before the referendum. Voters either didn’t research or were in denial about it. (Although many acknowledged pain before gain). They can say they were conned, but actually many were just lazy.

I don’t think Leave voters are all racists, but they were apparently comfortable with endorsing a cause whose campaign and politicians were explicitly racist. I would not personally want to be complicit in that.

Pepperwort · 06/06/2020 08:42

The overpopulation in this country, its lack of resources, the way it is becoming increasingly uneconomic to produce anything here, the barriers in the way of earning a living: these are all real. No one ever bothered to listen or care as long as the rich could get richer. I did not vote leave, but I can see the way people are being driven into the ground, people whose main crime in life is not being born into the right families with family wealth and international connections, and how those with international connections are viewed as having more rights to live in our own country than we do. I obviously need another holiday from the internet and particularly the increasing right wing aggression from the so-called liberals.

Pepperwort · 06/06/2020 08:44

Racism is not that simple either. Go look up Shirebrook in Derbyshire, and recognise that it is not an isolated example. The situation there hit the national news, it is not hard to google. "Educate yourself".

Pepperwort · 06/06/2020 08:45

Aaaannnd breeeaathe.

RedToothBrush · 06/06/2020 08:55

Wow mathanxiety. I hadn't quite grasped the magnitude and significance of a couple of statements from the last few days. I think what you've pointed out needs a little expansion. The penny hadn't dropped with me til you've pointed it out.

I had heard Esper's statement from a couple of days ago (current defense secretary). When I heard that I was both surprised and very relieved, as Trump's comments about using the army against civilians were disturbing and incredibly anti American. It would put the US on the very brink of civil war and any military leader would be aware of that significance.

The right to bear arms was born from the birth of the US and the right of the American people to stand up to the tyranny of their leaders (George III and the British). So many Second Amendment supporters on the Republican side will be particularly familiar with this history and it will be a sentitive issue for them. It hadn't quite occurred to me just how much that might rattle Republican cages, especially given their reluctance to speak out previously. Its obviously stirred something up but I hadn't realised to what extent.

I'd heard Esper's predecessor (and Trump appointee) Mattis's statement and how it invoked the constitution and will have reminded many Americans (particularly those with a military background) of that. Again interesting that Mattis backed his successor who must have gone out on a limb to say what he did.

Trump's very personal attack on Mattis has been something to behold. Obviously during Mattis's tenure he ruffled Trump's feathers. And boy has this hit a nerve.

That was quite some leadership by Mattis. But yes I doubt it was spontaneous. Its been a long time coming since he left the Whitehouse by all accounts.

You also have Trump's former chief of staff John Kelly come out and support Mattis. He spoke out after Trump's very personal attack on Mattis. John Kelly was a US General too.

If memory serves me correctly in the early days of the Trump administration Mattis and Kelly held the line in trying to almost be the grown ups in the room and to manage Trump. There was talk at the time that Mattis, Kelly and I forget who the other person was, formed a pact of three within the Whitehouse to contain Trump somewhat but this eventually collapsed. For what reason and in what circumstances we don't know, but I think we are getting a glimpse of it now. And the statement that Trump will not relinquish power willingly is important in an election year and in the context of him saying let's send troops in on civilians.

Its the ultimate warning of what is to come and what America must now prepare for. And its not to Democratics. Its to Republicans and to the military and security forces.

Remember many many secret service personnel and army personnel are particularly aggrieved by Trump's disrespect for them and the uniform. They are traditionally Republican voters. Mattis is asking them directly to consider with drawing their support for Trump both at the ballot box AND to take a knee if required - not for black lives as such - but to protect the people as a whole

Indeed Kelly said explicitly:
'I think we need to look harder at who we elect. I think we should look at people that are running for office and put them through the filter: What is their character like? What are their ethics?' Kelly, told Anthony Scaramucci, former White House communications director, during a live-streamed interview for a conference.

There's another' coincidence'. Anthony Scaramucci. Trump' s former communications officer who lasted 10 days in the job.

You also have retired General John Allen and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Mark Milley speaking out against Trump's comments this week.

Also this:
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/senator-lisa-murkowski-trump-james-mattis-republican-alaska-2020-us-election-a9549571.html

In a remarkable potential break from her party, Republican Senator Lisa Murkowski told reporters on Thursday she is "struggling" with whether to back Donald Trump's reelection bid this November.

The Alaska senator also lauded former Defence Secretary James Mattis' condemnation this week of Mr Trump, saying the retired Marine general's letter to The Atlantic denouncing his former boss were "true and honest and necessary and overdue."

Ms Murkowski said she was "really thankful" for Mr Mattis' letter because she has been "struggling for the right words" to express her thoughts on the president's handling of recent events such as the anti-police-brutality protests that have swept the nation in the wake of the death of Minneapolis man George Floyd.

"When I saw General Mattis' comments yesterday I felt like perhaps we are getting to a point where we can be more honest with the concerns that we might hold internally and have the courage of our own convictions to speak up," she said.

Then yesterday we had Trump's apparent change of tone where he said that things had to change etc etc and sounded much more like he was condemning police actions.

But that's only come AFTER you've had such damning interventions from the Republican side and from the military.

Now the issue is how Trump now frames things as him versus the Democrats.

Mattis's intervention was very measured and will be something very very prepared. He will have a plan and a strategy. There's very clearly coordination going on here. There's definite leadership.

Will someone from a military background risk taking on Trump from within the Republican party for the election? If Trump carries on, I suspect that is the real risk Trump runs. I very much agree with your analysis math. It's hugely important.

And the question still remains about how you remove Trump from the Whitehouse without him trying to set the country on fire in the process. It might not be November. But this is a question that remains and isn't going away.

Fascinating stuff.

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JeSuisPoulet · 06/06/2020 09:18

Belated PMK.

I've not encountered any Leavers admitting they were conned, despite asking. Most are in the denial stage of "it's not related to my vote" even when faced directly with NFU (Jamie Oliver also has a campaign that manages not to mention Brexit and some are supporting that Hmm ), border in Irish Sea and lack of £350m for NHS (although strangely that seemed to be one of the first promises to be dropped and replaced with "that was never a promise" without an eyelid batted Hmm ).

I was thinking that HK "expats" Wink would be quite handy to a UK/US fighting China. Language, financial know-how, experience of how China 'ticks', high levels of inventiveness and productivity...much less likely to be unemployed than your average Englishman/woman.

Then I got to thinking about our University problem and how some private schools rely on Asian students to boost numbers and income. I've begun to wonder if we won't be offering many HK'ers some form of higher education with first year's student housing in return for residency. I'm sure they would throw ina year of English Language too with accommodation...plug some gaps and show willing to the gen pub that these are not immigrants at all!

thecatfromjapan · 06/06/2020 09:18

Some of that's very true, Pepperwort - though I'd disagree with the 'Ivory towers' bit.

Yes, it's easy to forget how unseriously the referendum was taken: the air of carnival and license and lack of consequence surrounding that bloody vote. Carefully cultivated by some, we'd suggest - with the gift of hindsight. The lack of scrutiny, the misinformation unchallenged, the equal weight given to nonsense ...

That should never, ever be forgotten - it was deeply corrosive. And part of that corrosion lay, of course, in its effectiveness.

And, yes, you are right: track blame to the source.

I'm still bitter, though. How can I not be? It seems that the anxiety and care falls disproportionately and is still unacknowledged. Along with the effort, which also fell disproportionately, of wading through that mire of disinformation and resisting it - and losing.

And then, this: now living with the consequences of a government led by the most rank and immoral people, whose one goal (enrichment by disgraceful means of an already bloated few) is wholly at odds with the traits and determinations necessary to deliver the U.K. through a pandemic with least human cost. And that cost is not just economic but actually, really is a matter of life or death to some.

It's grotesque and quite literally at the very edge of what is bearable.

And I guess it's made worse because I'm still seeing many of those same dynamics in play. As though we learn nothing, even when the consequences are the most material and evident: when actual, real lives are the cost.

I've learned about propaganda and ideology. I know now - because I see it in front of me - that 80% of the power of propaganda is gifted by the recipient. Propaganda doesn't 'brainwash'. It's power lies in being seized upon by recipients who are desperate for any half-plausible reason to cling on to what they have already chosen to believe.

And 'half-plausible' is often the sum of it. If you are outside the circle of belief, the lies are frustratingly transparent and illogical. And the fact you are dealing with chosen belief is a tear-inducing horror.

We see it now with Covid. We watch people still insisting it's just flu, that herd immunity is the way forwards, that everything's going to work out. More bleakly, we see people dismissing deaths as inevitable for those with underlying conditions, or the elderly. Most worryingly, we see people dismissing the death figures, in the entirety, as an overestimate.

And we see people choosing to cling on to charlatans - exposes charlatans - and continue to choose to not hold the government to account or demand better. To make their excuses for them.

And ... you can't wish that element of 'choice' away. It really does exist.

But, you are, of course, right. Blame lies with those in power, who will benefit.

I know that the decision to 'choose' to believe is often not a choice at all - it's an element of powerlessness and the human capacity to survive. But sometimes it's also cruelty. For example, one friend astutely said that the whole point of the NHS promise was not to dupe people into believing it but to give a polite cover for racists, so they could vote for racist/xenophobic reasons but mask that with the more socially acceptable ' I voted to give money to the NHS'.

Nevertheless, I'm watching a similar madness unfold with Covid. And it's instructive. The need to hope, the desire to believe that things are not as awful as they seem: it's powerful. It's a really charming desire in many ways: it often expresses itself as a will to makd things better for others.

It's coming out as a desire to ignore the news and cling on to positive spins at the moment.

But, my goodness, that element of 'choice' is frustrating.

Anyway, the tl:dr is that I'm still exhausted and sad. And still in a place of deep worry about where we're headed.

Pepperwort · 06/06/2020 09:25

I am sorry to rant at you lot. It's misplaced and not helpful. I do need a holiday - don't we all with Covid. Thank you catfromjapan

thecatfromjapan · 06/06/2020 09:28

It would be a massive attack of the constitution to deploy troops across the US, wouldn't it, mathsnxiety? It's the case they have to be invited by state governors for a start ...

I find it hard to believe Trump could get away with it ... but then, this has been a year of signs and wonders, so far ...

I do hope GOP are moving against him: the economy is hurt, and he's losing support - at long last.

I actually began to hope that he might lose, the other day. 🤷‍♀️

Pepperwort · 06/06/2020 09:31

What you say about propaganda is interesting cat, but I can't entirely agree with it. If that is the only information you are given, and you don't have the capability to find out differently, through connections or whatever, then that is your world.

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