Westminstenders: Just another DEADline

[RedToothBrush]

Today is the last scheduled day for talks with the EU.

We have til 30th June to ask for a transition extension. We won't.

That leaves us starring down the barrel of a no deal exit, when we still could be in a covid-19 crisis and the US may be in turmoil given recent events and the coming election...

It's not a pretty picture.

"if centrists swallowed the right wing lines on Corbyn"

I've kept my eye on Corbyn since he was elected MP in 1983
My opinion of him being a lifelong Lexiter and having dangerous friends, including violently anti-semitic friends - is from my own observations of him from that date

If Labour want people not on the hard left to vote for them, then they need to elect a leader we can stomach
Starmer is one

Threatening centrists with the hard right bogeymen doesn't work

• Labour should have learned it in 1983, 2017 and 2019 but it seems even after an 80-vote Tory majority some still think we can be forced into voting for them by TINA

We saw how Lexiters and Brexiters voted together

(cf MPs voting to prevent MPs from voting).

This for me is the confirmation that I was right to be worried about this group who've rode Brexit to power. And their followers are still trying to make out that whatever future the EU has will somehow be worse. It would be laughable if it wasn't so horrifying.

I could not understand why the LibDems pushed for the election. I can see why the SNP did. However, Labour went along with it, and what was in it for them? This was all after the illegal prorogation of Parliament, so they all knew by then what Johnson and Rees-Mogg were up to, even if they hadn't fully realised how much influence Cummings had.

We were nearly on the point of getting another Referendum. However, had that been the case, I think it would have been as corrupt as the first one was, so the Remain cause would probably have lost.

As far as the Coalition went, as soon as Cameron stitched up the PR vote to be a referendum on the Alternative Vote, which isn't PR, the LibDems should have said that the deal was off. Not even go for Confidence and Supply - let Cameron run a minority Government.

Lexiters were never an organised movement during 2016. Everything was about farage and Johnson. Brexit is right wing ideology, it is a far cry from anti globalisation/anti neo liberal economics used by the left decades earlier.

Hard left is another right wing phrase. Useful to brexiteers and centrists alike. We are at this point because the remain movement post referendum was abysmal. Centrists that sat on their hands last December, now scream in horror that the country is a mess. The people Corbyn wanted to help the most will suffer. Those people probably weren't waving placards on jollies to London over the last 4 years.

yoikes
and breathe
There is no point being angry with people about what they did 4 years ago.
90% of the country has forgotten the February flooding.
Its like being cross with a puppy for shitting on the floor.

You have to accept and roll with the shit in the rear view mirror
yesterday is as past as the Crimean War

If you want to change minds you have to look forwards
not backwards
cummings was, his audience just did not realise it

entirely agree with @GhostofFrankGrimes

I'm also as angry as @yoikes

I'm SO angry.

cummings up for a knighthood then?

A weary PMK
Just imagine if after the Brexit result, a very narrow win in an advisory referendum, there had been some attempt to bring people together and work out how to deal with it in a way that moved us forward as a country. But that was never on the cards as a faction of the right wing have used it as a way to get everything they wanted (less rights, standards, regulations, safeguards for ordinary people) and to gaslight the people it will disadvantage the most into being loud advocates for them. Add in the most unimpressive government in living memory and the coronavirus ... It’s so depressing and the worse thing is it just gets worse.

No he is not,its just a wind up to get you frothing.

I know how to breathe, thanks. I've been doing it for ages.

I'm fucking FURIOUS about this shitshow.

And I refuse to give the architects of it a free pass.

Fuck em.

If you want to change minds you have to look forwards
not backwards

I have to agree. We definitely need people with a vision for the future. Not the Cummings style vision where the wealthy (or those who have married up into wealth like Cummings), take all the spoils. We need the vision of the Beveridges and those who brought in the welfare state.

Change their minds?
Not likely. Cognitive dissonance ahoy.
Take louise earlier...didn't actually answer hesters question (copying the dear leader...)
Leavers don't care about the lies told to get the result they wanted.
That's why they aren't angry. They simply don't care. Result (such as it is) achieved.
One can only hope they suffer as much as those of us who tried to prevent this.
I'll say it again...
Hubris
Nemesis
Catharsis
Pity so many will have to die though, eh?

As far as the Coalition went, as soon as Cameron stitched up the PR vote to be a referendum on the Alternative Vote, which isn't PR, the LibDems should have said that the deal was off. Not even go for Confidence and Supply - let Cameron run a minority Government.

I agree. In fact I had just that conversation with ds (19) on the phone a couple of days ago (he rang me to chat about 1984 which he'd just finished) - although he thinks (as a student ) that the last straw should've been student fees, on top of the referendum on a "not actually PR" system.

There is no chance of a modern welfare state when people have been fed the benefit scroungers narrative for years. The culture war in both the UK and US can only be lost by the hard right not won by liberals. The current situation in America is damaging Trump this may have knock on effect in the UK. It's been brought about by populists exposing their true selves not because any arguement has been won.

OK well, let's pick up Louise's last statement:

Point is, overall I view any potential future arrangements we might strike from here as more likely to be more positive than staying the EU would have been.

At the moment, it very much looks as though No Deal is the only thing on the table. We also have Liz Truss desperately trying to do Trade Deals with the USA. The Tory Government, with one honourable exception, refused to vote for an amendment which would have protected our farming standards. There is the expectation that food standards will be worse, and a real danger that our farming industry will be destroyed, in a country which is already unable to feed itself.

Please tell us Louise how you think that will be better than staying in the EU was.

PMK with peace.
The referendum was a shit show. There were leavers who had good reasons. Bloody good reasons, when you look at how much harder life has got. Real information on all possible impacts was lacking at the time - no one even mentioned Northern Ireland until way after the vote. British politics had already become mired in these concepts of social acceptability being more important than truth, and charisma more important than competence. If someone wants to come round and try to help the rest of us trapped here get some truth out of our god-awful excuses for career political classes, they are principled, brave and as much of a mushroom as many of us. And what DGR said, in much better fashion.

People did mention Northern Ireland. This was one thing which swung it for me. A vote Leave from me would have been one to give Cameron a well deserved kick in the teeth, but then I thought that this was negative and that we should vote for positive reasons. One of these was the hard won Good Friday Agreement.

Harold Wilson had much more sense with his referendum - he kept out of it once he'd called it, knowing that taking sides would have been a vote on his premiership. Cameron was too arrogant and entitled to do that.

But we have to BE NICE to those who voted for this

I deeply resent the 'be nice' thing. Its a way of telling people to shut up.

But regardless I do think that being civil is important and fundamentally different to the whole 'be nice' thing.

You can have robust differences of opinion whilst remaining civil but not necessarily sucumbing to the 'be nice' bullshit.

The idea that you can't, is in the vast majority of cases, a complete fallacy.

And there is a world of difference between moderate normal people, who pre 2016 were indifferent until being asked to vote on the subject, and the long term extremists out there.

I don't recall it being on the excuse for information sheets that were sent round. I was wrestling with voting Brexit for various reasons. Decided against it because it is ultimately the US or the EU, trade, and I never trusted any of the vote leavers to give a damn about the ordinary folk they were suddenly being chummy with. Lying bastards.

I admit that GFA was not on my radar when I voted remain
Dover was
Derry was not

Any of the vote leaver leaders, that should have been. I really need to proof read.

I remember being particularly annoyed about the GFA later, because that should have been known and would have been known. Another reason was general security in Europe. Anyway, hello to any other wobbly leave voters from a fellow mushroom.

NI was discussed, a quick Google will tell you that. Anyone who didn't understand the issues around brexit and didn't feel able to inform themselves should have voted for the status quo.

PMK