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Brexit

Westminstenders: Just another DEADline

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/06/2020 10:26

Today is the last scheduled day for talks with the EU.

We have til 30th June to ask for a transition extension. We won't.

That leaves us starring down the barrel of a no deal exit, when we still could be in a covid-19 crisis and the US may be in turmoil given recent events and the coming election...

It's not a pretty picture.

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squid4 · 12/06/2020 11:36

I'm feeling so conflicted at the moment, I am very happy to see a surge of fury about racism because it's been absolutely appalling since brexit let the racists out the box, but the virus hasn't gone anywhere so the lack of social distancing with protesting horrifies me, and also the inevitable pushback from the racists is a grim reminder of the shithole our country has become (or always was?)

I don't think I can wait to outlive this predominantly older generation that shares none of my values (this isn't a comment on individuals at all). Is there any hope for change? Or is it just a matter of when you jump ship and move?

Right now I'd take dethroning Johnson as a win even though he will inevitably be replaced with someone just as bad. This is seriously affecting my mental health. It cannot be normal or healthy to be angry every single day.

My city remains very unlike the rest of the Uk, or I'd have been gone longer ago. I think scotland feels the same.

(I know I'm privilege to be able to leave the country, with a transferable job and all... also don't want to abandon it, my lovely country. Rain and the best music.)

GhostofFrankGrimes · 12/06/2020 11:37

All this special pleading, Grimes, seems to boil down to: it wasn’t Corbyn’s fault (Brexit, the election result). It was Remainer’s fault who didn’t read the room, who were concerned about gap years, who didn’t grasp the effect of the hard right press - of course they bloody did.

No special pleading here. Remainers didn't read the room. See Change UK for further details.If remainers were so aware of right wing media manipulation they wouldn't parrot so many of their lines about Corbyn. You don't have to like Owen Jones but at least understand that he is one of the few commentators raising awareness of social inequalities. Mocking him for having a MC background is no better than accusing Starmer of losing touch with his WC roots now he is QC. Its lazy thinking.

DGRossetti · 12/06/2020 11:43

The bit about the contempt for the Welsh language isn't made up

Well it didn't need to be. You only need to visit Wales today to see how the English that live In Wales manage to avoid it. Nothing historical there.

yoikes · 12/06/2020 11:46

Why was farage sacked btw?

DGRossetti · 12/06/2020 11:46

Right now I'd take dethroning Johnson as a win even though he will inevitably be replaced with someone just as bad.

The problem with that is that it would be used - with a straight face - by the Tories to "move on" and completely forget 2019-2020. So it would be back to square one for any opposition. Which is at least advancing, if geologically.

This is seriously affecting my mental health. It cannot be normal or healthy to be angry every single day.

Let fury have the hour, anger can be power;
Do you know that you can use it ?

Strummer (RIP) Sad /Jones

Peregrina · 12/06/2020 11:47

Sorry, so Remainers called the Referendum? No, Cameron, the arrogant stuck up old Etonian didn't read the room. Don't blame the rest of us. In this case I don't even blame those Leavers who thought they were voting for more money for the NHS - that was a perfectly valid wish. As for the people of Sunderland, well, if Nissan does pull out, it will be what you actually voted for, even if you didn't think it was what you voted for.

I for one don't parrot anything about Corbyn, but any Labour leader is fair game as far as the Press goes.

HesterThrale · 12/06/2020 11:48

squid Owen Jones ain't perfect but we literally have Farage on our airwaves.

As I posted yesterday, the tiny piece of good news is that we don’t have Farage on our airwaves any more. Apparently one can be a bit too racist.

Nigel Farage leaves radio station LBC

It’d be lovely if he didn’t resurface, but I fear he’s a floater.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/entertainment-arts-53006006

RedToothBrush · 12/06/2020 11:48

Owen Jones ain't perfect but we literally have Farage on our airwaves.

Did you miss the memo yesterday? In fact I'm glad you did because it shows how irrelevant he's becoming.

He departed from LBC yesterday. On his show on Thursday he said he'd be back at 6 the next day. He wasn't.

Besides why do we always have to have this ridiculous straw man argument where we have to argue between whether we should tolerate antisemitism or islamophobia depending on your political alignment? Support the Conservatives because Labour is anti-semitic. Support Labour because the Conservatives are Islamophobic. Support the Pans because sex is made up and we really aren't a bunch of homophobic barking fruitcakes who don't understand safeguarding.

Can we not just say they are all crap and demand better instead of this endless ritual of making excuses for why we tolerate unacceptable behaviour because X is apparently worse?

The left, right and Liberals are all demonstrating appalling sexism and racism in their own ways. Failure to see this means we won't stop it because we aren't fully understanding the institutional structure of it.

Jones came from the Labour establishment and went to Oxford. He had lots of nice connections cos of Daddy and his opportunities at Oxford. He can bullshit as well as Johnson.

Why is he better than Johnson? He's part of the same problem as Johnson.

Yet to say th s apparently makes you a right wing supporter, a Marxist or a transphobic bigot.

All are ways to tell you to shut up and stop drawing attention to the rampant bullshit.

I've always said the EU wasn't perfect, but it was better than our alternatives especially in the absence of a credible alternative suggestion. I've said it's deeply flawed and if we examined this maybe we'd have done better domestically as well as action reform within the EU. We have very firmly missed this boat so now we have to go through the process of working out that we've got no one else to blame for the bullshit but our own incompetence and blame shifting. The way the world works doesn't change because we click our fingers and wish it.

I'm not going to shut about it. Because not shutting up is supposed to be the point of journalism to hold power to account and expose the hypocrisy, nepotism, downright lunacy and corruption.

That was kinda of the premise in which I've kept these threads running for nearly 4 years now. Nice of some of you to notice.

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Peregrina · 12/06/2020 11:49

You only need to visit Wales today to see how the English that live In Wales manage to avoid it. Nothing historical there.

Ditto English enclaves in Spain.

MockersGuidedByTheScience · 12/06/2020 11:52

BJ looks around the world for a role model in these troubled times, and decides the thing to do is spout rightwing nationalist apologism on Twitter, because it's working so well elsewhere:

twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1271388180193914880

MockersGuidedByTheScience · 12/06/2020 11:54

Nigel Farage leaves radio station LBC. It’d be lovely if he didn’t resurface, but I fear he’s a floater.

Bouyant turds rise up (!) as one to protest at being compared to Farage.

DGRossetti · 12/06/2020 11:57

Ditto English enclaves in Spain.

The recent thread from someone who - despite (allegedly) being with their partner 8 years - was unable to follow a basic conversation between them and their DM in Italian provided a fascinating window into the origins of that arrogance and uselessness. And more than one poster stated outright "if they don't like it, why don't they ... go back ?".

I'd say if after being someones partner for 8 years, you haven't "got you ear in" with a language, then I'd suggest the only conclusion (to use a MN favourite) is that you "aren't that into them.".

Turns out I was wrong.

squid4 · 12/06/2020 11:58

Owen Jones does not have the same political views as Johnson. He has not voted through austerity and the deaths of tens of thousands to line his cronies' pockets. That is an extremely false equivalence. I don't agree with all his views but he has been a voice against austerity. He has also taken an huge amount of abuse including a physical assault and kept going, so I think he's quite brave.

I'm not interested in having a fight about it though. There are some supposedly left wing journalists who make my blood boil (ian dunt!) He has plenty of fans (who are deluded Grin )and I don't go picking fights with them because we should have common goals.

Eyes on the enemy.

I did miss the farage news sorry I dip in and out here! Why was he sacked? (Why wasn't he sacked years ago!)

RedToothBrush · 12/06/2020 11:58

I feel confident enough to now say we may have now have finally passed peak Farage.

At last.

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thecatfromjapan · 12/06/2020 11:58

Fair enough, Squid.

I honestly think OJ represents part of the bigger problem we have.

But it goes without saying that the largest problem we have is the current government and its aims.

Yes. Please let's talk it through with civility.

I do think that one issue - which Red has talked about again and again - is the reduction of politics to extremes and the abolition of nuance & compromise.

This thread is a wonderful place to re-introduce that.

I don't think we have to accept Owen Jones' style of polemicism as unproblematic just because the alternative is so dire. Not here, on this thread.

Maybe elsewhere, yes, we do. (I've gone campaigning with him, for heaven's sake. I know all about either/or choices.)

But here, here on this thread, surely it is permissible to allow ourselves the necessary luxury of a more unconstrained way of thinking - where we can say, 'There are problems with the kind of political engagement OJ represents and actually does.'

Because there are.

To unpack those problems is necessary to beginning to articulate a way out of the mess we're in, and to develop a politics beyond our contemporary carnage.

And it couldn't be more necessary because, let's be blunt, in the current situation we are losing.

And we badly need to stop losing.

Sadly, I don't think it's age, Squid. Or not age alone. I read a fantastic breakdown of political attitudes that demonstrated how attitudes have shifted, and are continuing to shift, across all ages, towards progressive values.

And I felt heartened - and then I thought, 'But we still have a massively right wing government, with a majority, and right-wing populism is enormously succesful outside the UK.'

So, we are clearly going to have to re-think how we do politics.

Because, at the moment, we are simply not doing politics well enough to win against the hard right.
🤷‍♀️

thecatfromjapan · 12/06/2020 12:00

I feel it is surely possible to discuss these things with respect. Especially since so many of us here really share similar aims and desires.

squid4 · 12/06/2020 12:00

@RedToothBrush

I feel confident enough to now say we may have now have finally passed peak Farage.

At last.

This is worthy of my first attempt at the quote feature!!! Smile
RedToothBrush · 12/06/2020 12:01

Eyes on the enemy.

I'm sorry but this is exactly my point.

It is NOT them versus us in a battle of good versus evil in black and white terms.

I refuse to engage in this type of divisiveness where you are asked "you are either with us or against us".

Its. Not. That. Fucking. Simplist.

Talk about missing the bloody point of why I've been saying how dangerous the culture war is.

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thecatfromjapan · 12/06/2020 12:02

Red If you are saying we are past peak-Farage, I might allow myself a bit of celebration. I've never known you to be falsely optimistic. 😁

RedToothBrush · 12/06/2020 12:03

Failure to address your own failings means they can be exploited by your political opponents.

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GhostofFrankGrimes · 12/06/2020 12:03

I for one don't parrot anything about Corbyn, but any Labour leader is fair game as far as the Press goes.

Yes, so perhaps the pragmatic approach for moderate voters would have been to play the ball not the man. Instead getting Corbyn out became bigger for some than the actual election. Back in December comfortably off remainers could economically weather even a no deal Brexit and more austerity. What nobody banked on was a global pandemic. This will be far more equal in its economic fallout than Brexit - damaging white and blue collar jobs alike. Now real panic has set in, we can't tolerate a government built on slogans anymore, we need real leadership! Too late I'm afraid. Should Starmer ride in on a white horse in 2024 it will be far too late.

squid4 · 12/06/2020 12:04

I do agree with you in part cat, but I also see the left fracturing all the time and the right so united Sad So I try and focus my fury...

I do plenty of ranting about left wing people I can't stand in the privacy of my own home to DP.... I don't personally find Jones anywhere near as problematic as most of the observer journalists - had to stop reading guardian on sunday and cancelled my bbc subscription at one point...

but anyway. BBC is a good example of something I think is broken and terrible but probably should not be where I focus my anger, as the rightwing attack it too.

RedToothBrush · 12/06/2020 12:05

Cat Farage will scream into social media looking for attention but he's no long relevant and he's now looking for relevance.

We have alternative figures doing the same job though.

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DGRossetti · 12/06/2020 12:07

Nigel Farage leaves radio station LBC. It’d be lovely if he didn’t resurface, but I fear he’s a floater.

Who knows ? The story doing the rounds is that some employees at LBC felt uncomfortable with some issues around NF, and LBC felt they won at this point in time. I believe they may have considered themselves from a background that was at odds with Farages well known views and LBC read the room and decided they preferred to report stories not be stories.

That said, I wonder if Farage is slinking into some sort of alt-history. You'd have to be an utter twat to believe Brexit is going to be anything other than a disaster, and when it does go pear shaped proper the best place to be is a long way away with your prepared spiel about how you were betrayed. Possibly by this moment, since it would be the obvious proven lazy way to slither out of it ...

Brexit ? It was all going fine, and then this dreadful #BLM thing happened and completely derailed it. We'd have gotten what we wanted if it wasn't for those pesky immigrants and their goddamn humanity

Or something equally vomit inducing.

Personally I'd pin that fucker Farage in the spotlight for the rest of eternity. Don't let him off the hook. He needs to be on the BBC every day explaining to us how well Brexit is going. Every fucking day. Ideally on the hour, every hour. Don't let him pop in and out of the limelight like the proverbial Viz "turtles head" (just to note, by the way, it was not I that started the scatalogical references).

squid4 · 12/06/2020 12:08

OK Red. I don't really agree with you on that front. I think Labour needs to be a broad church. Wouldn't object to joining Lib dems greens too etc. I don't think we have a hope in hell if it's all the people's front of Judea etc.

But I very much respect your point of view and your knowledge and passion on these threads.