Immigration: Sh*t just got real...

[Miljea]

Wonder how Timmy Wetherspoons is frothing today?

Points based??

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51550421BBC

"Low-skilled workers would not get visas under post-Brexit immigration plans unveiled by the government.

It is urging employers to "move away" from relying on "cheap labour" from Europe and invest in retaining staff and developing automation technology."

And take on the 6m 'economically inactive' 16-64 year olds in Britain.

Good luck with that.

Gosh, that devil is in the detail, innit?

And, separate but important point, who the chuff is clamouring to get into the UK, now, other than southern Asians uniting families? (Which I completely understand).

That BBC story is from 2012, Theworld. I saw someone reference it elsewhere, has it suddenly hit the BBC 'most read' section again? I can't think why it would be, but I have seen that gamed before during the election.

I am not the person collecting the data.
If you think Ashcroft is simplistic, raise it with him.

I think it is being used simplistically. It is a common enough complaint about British media. All British statistics and simple data-gathering needs to be treated with a certain degree of intelligence which is not apparent. Causation / correlation is easy to confuse, and causation is not a simple matter by itself either. As for raising any issues with British officialdom - that is exactly what people tried to do, and were ignored.

ThrowingGoodAfterBad sorry, I didnt notice. Though, I'm sure it will be suggested again.

The story of Shirebrook:
www.derbyshiretimes.co.uk/news/exclusive-influx-eastern-european-immigrants-leads-rising-tensions-say-police-1244258

www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39973990

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3577855/A-rapist-protected-police-neglected-mining-town-turned-Little-Poland.html

No people living just a few miles away are not going to be unaware of the real impact of immigrants. I should have posted up my doubts about low immigration = stupid racist Leave voters on here before. For the record, I voted remain.

That BBC article by John Humphreys is interesting to read.
It almost appears as though he was disappointed to find less actual tension and fewer real issues than he expected to in Shirebrook.

Humphrys.

I live in a middle class London suburb. We have a high number of East Europeans and other EU citizens living here, across the spectrum of wages and occupations, including keeping our NHS going, social care, hospitality, actually being prepared to do small domestic work, cleaning, plumbing, handymen, academics, scientists, right up to working in highly paid City jobs. Two Polish shops and one Hungarian. They are really valued, one of the highest remain votes in the country, the road next to us have put up an EU flag. There is no local work force to step in to fill the gap there is going to be. The High Street will die, as will our service infrastructure, NHS, social care etc. The housing market is already stagnating as neighbours, both EU and Brits are moved overseas with their companies. I am a northerner, I get people will say diddums but we aren't all the impervious elite, and I would gladly pay more tax if there was any chance of this government being competent enough to level up the economy. Moving science and tech infrastructure and linking in the poorer towns ie the red wall would be a start but you bet that what he will kill off out of his blinkered ignorance is staying in Cummings backyard. The London economy generates taxation by virtue of its involvement in the global economy. You don't make the rest of the country better off by making London poorer.

In the past of course, the Govt shipped out Civil Service work to the regions. Since 2010 anything public sector has been an absolute no-no and they have been busy cutting, cutting, cutting, so that solution is no longer readily available.

It might be a good idea to ship the HoC out to Manchester, say, while its being refurbished, but I can't see that happening.

Not Manchester, or if that area insists to Salford over Manchester. I'd prefer Derby or Stoke to Nottingham even. We should have an administration centre that is kept very very separate from the money. But no, I can't see it actually happening either. It would be a bigger shock than Brexit!

Not finished reading yet, but this is fascinating. I've learned a lot. I see now that paying the poor a real wage would only drive the prices up for everyone and is therefore a bad thing!

Presumably no poor person would object to getting more money so this must be a concern mainly felt by those who are not poor, but who are worried about the gap narrowing.

I feel for them. They also face the prospect of having to pay real wages for their cleaners etc. It must be terrifying.

Will no one think of the middle class?

LastTrain
You have clearly enjoyed grabbing the wrong end of the stick with both hands.
It is the public sector that is most crippled by the vicious combination of austerity and unfunded wage rises

remember that when Greggs gave all of their staff a £300 Christmas bonus,
those on Universal credit has all but £70 of it clawed back by the Government

I thought the leavers wanted a free market based, agile, competitive global economy so regardless of my opinion (I would be against this) I think that low wages for the poor are exactly what's coming. Bojo has made sure that the unskilled and young have now got severely reduced freedom to find better paid work elsewhere also.

The Leaver I know best wants white "English looking" people to be visually dominant in public spaces and no talk about EU in the daily news. He'd like return of hanging and firmly disbelieves climate change is a problem, too. I don't think he understands anything about agile or free markets or care worker shortages.

Last train east If you can’t afford a cleaner you can’t afford a cleaner but if there is nobody to deliver your baby or wipe your bum and get you out of bed if you need care that is entirely more threatening to quality of life...

Touché 🙂

Emilyontmoor so you'd agree that paying poor people more is a bad thing to do? We should insist instead on getting people from other countries who will work for a pittance without complaining?

Danetobe I was responding to people saying further back that paying higher wages to the poor just led to trouble.

Let's say you're poor and higher wages mean you get an extra 100 quid a month. Great!

Except higher prices for food and other essential goods means that your bills go up 100 quid a month.

So you're not any better off. That's the argument being made here.

Higher wages in general are good. Higher wages in certain sectors that won't increase costs for most people are also good. But higher wages in industries where those costs will be passed on to everyone, and actually hit poor people the hardest, are a problem.

It's not an unsolvable problem because in theory the government could offer subsidies or something, but no way in hell the current government will.

ListeningQuietly Consider that Greggs example. You understand that is how it is supposed to work right? I get why that seemed mean, but that was tax payers getting their money back.

No one should be getting or need to get benefits if they are working, but for most people wages are too low to live on. We have created a situation where the tax payer subsidises cheap labour for businesses which then can pay shareholders more (often in other countries).

If Greggs (for example) had to pay a real wage all the time then the tax payers generally would be better off for not having to pay the benefits for the people working there.

And yes that might cause Greggs prices to rise ( shareholders would pay for some of it). but that would be for anyone who shopped there which is how it should be.

And now we have people saying do NOT pay people a real wage which I find shocking.

There are times a government does have to subsidise something and care homes are going to be one of them. When the service is essential and market forces won't do it on their own.

LastTrain
The Greggs issue was caused by the vicious poverty inducing clawback of Universal Credit.

Tax credits are a highly efficient method of supplementing the income of poor families - they are used by many countries.

In the UK, housing costs are a major driver of poverty.

The current basic wage should be enough.
It does not need to rise further
if it does, the cost of automation will kick in
and then job losses will spread

Labour market economics are incredibly complex

The curious thing is for me, that I'm finding that I don't in principle, object to this policy. It seems that doctors, nurses, scientists etc will still be able to work in the UK without significant problems getting residency, at least on a temporary basis.

I just don't think that, in the longer term of 3-10 years, it will reduce the number of low paid workers and have the effect of increasing salaries at the lower end of the pay scale as previous posters would like. I think that they will just add farm hands, fish processors and carers to the list of needed workers at some point, and bam - the status quo is restored in terms of numbers of working population immigration.

Businesses will have the added admin though. And because immigration will likely increase, many people will still be concerned that the beautiful countryside will be 'paved over' in an effort to house everyone and public services and infrastructure will still be breaking. Basically the problems that have been blamed on 'uncontrolled' migration will still exist.

I suppose the perceived 'control' over numbers might placate some voters. Who knows - it certainly will be interesting.

It seems that doctors, nurses, scientists etc will still be able to work in the UK without significant problems getting residency, at least on a temporary basis.
But why would they want to pay £1000 for a visa that does not allow their families and children any sort of access
when they would work in friendlier countries

Agreed

I know a guy, only qualified applicant for his job, who paid about £5k for visas in 2014 to bring self, wife & 1 child to UK. Are proposed Visa costs similar?