Immigration: Sh*t just got real...

[Miljea]

Wonder how Timmy Wetherspoons is frothing today?

Points based??

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51550421BBC

"Low-skilled workers would not get visas under post-Brexit immigration plans unveiled by the government.

It is urging employers to "move away" from relying on "cheap labour" from Europe and invest in retaining staff and developing automation technology."

And take on the 6m 'economically inactive' 16-64 year olds in Britain.

Good luck with that.

Gosh, that devil is in the detail, innit?

And, separate but important point, who the chuff is clamouring to get into the UK, now, other than southern Asians uniting families? (Which I completely understand).

Points based system is brilliant. Can't wait for it to kick in

We've always had this. How will the new one make any difference to your life?

Either there are 8.5m people available for work, or the unemployment figures are a lie.

Well, the unemployment figures are based on those claiming unemployment benefit. Lots of people can't or won't

Then there are others, like my dp, who is retired, though not retirement age - so economically inactive - has no need to work for money (but did a lot to help his son's business, unpaid) and for whom it would be a bloody ice cold day in hell before he takes in any job, let alone fruit picking or care work!

If you want to go and live in Australia, you have to have a specific trade, qualification or skill. Why aren’t people up in arms about that?

Maybe because there are a number of visas you can get. If you are on a working holiday you don't need points, just to be either young or have a good reason you couldn't do the trip earlier.

If you are prepared to live in certain areas for 5 years you don't need as many points, if you move from that area before your time is up you don't get to stay permanently.

If you are from NZ you don't need a visa.

Australia has also just given anyone on a working holiday visa an extra 6 months if they are working in bushfire recovery.

In short they respond to the needs of their country.

It's so hard to immigrate to Australia that nearly 30% of the Australian population was born outside Australia.

Even with free movement, the equivalent figure for the U.K. is under 15%.

The new U.K. system does not really ressemble an Australian system except in the most superficial way.

It will be fascinating to see what happens in this huge real world experiment. I'm at a point now where I don't know what is real anymore. Are the gov figures real? Will the population jump at the chance to enter care work or fishing or fruit picking even if that means a pay cut or lifestyle change or moving to the sticks? It seems we will find out. I'd guess no, people won't 'pull together' in this fashion, and even if they did I can't see it being good for Britain in a global context. What the f*uck does Britain want to get out of this exercise? Go global?- then liberalise the markets (including the labour market!) Go protectionist? - then manage a shrinking economy responsibly by not blaming one group or another. Go somewhere in between? The get that EU membership application in😆

Will the population jump at the chance to enter care work or fishing or fruit picking even if that means a pay cut or lifestyle change or moving to the sticks?

As ever, Scotland will be one key testing ground for WM's new policies. Will people flock to Peterhead to fillet fish and shuck scallops? (And will some of them shuttle back and forth to wherever they lived before to look after their ageing parents or other dependents?)
I know what outcome I'd bet on.

I am quite sure that UK turkeys would happily vote for Thanksgiving, since it's not celebrated in this country - a reprieve, time to work on an escape plan.

Part of me wants to laugh - Johnson and Patel are now waking up to what the realities entail. So Patel issues a "written on the back of an envelope" immigration policy and then finds that it gathers a storm of protest. Oh dear!

Fruit has traditionally been picked by roving gangs of workers for about a century and a half now. There were also the celebrated hop picking trains which took East Enders to the Kent hop fields, for a working holiday. All gone now!

Why is EU labour called cheap? Surely they are paid a minimum wage, so Brits would be paid the same?

If the work is unskilled, then why are we being told that Brits will be trained to do it?

Exactly! Thank you.

Will the population jump at the chance to enter care work or fishing or fruit picking even if that means a pay cut or lifestyle change or moving to the sticks?

Well they can't any more can they? Seasonal work is seasonal - it requires an acceptance that people will not be able to work all year round. Unfortunately there is now an absolutism around working - for the poorer groups, obvs, while the rich grow ever richer while working as little as possible - and all the systems that would have enabled a local seasonal population have been dismantled. Plus living costs, so seasonal work just is not possible.

Remember that somebody is counted as "in work" even if they only get paid for one hour a fortnight on a zero hours contract

Also remember that quite a few of the East European workers are here under the "posted worker" scheme so paid much less than the NMW
the one bit of EU legislation I have always thought was a bad thing

BUT
with housing costs as they are
because councils are barred from building enough social housing to bring prices down
people cannot easily move for work

Anglo Saxons will become the underclass in Priti's brave new world

I am not sure that fishing was seasonal but it required going out to sea for weeks at a time, often in hostile conditions, so it's not all that surprising that the owners sold their boats and quotas to opt for something better.

A few comments on this thread about uncontrolled immigration taking jobs and houses from U.K. citizens etc etc

I live in the SE and only know a handful from other countries, all in work in professional careers so no exposure to this problem.

Just wondering where in the country is this uncontrolled immigration having a significant impact? ( am talking large numbers - not just your plumber was undercut once by a polish builder!)

When I google this question I see factual articles stating research shows no impact and then articles from the sun end of the press with hysterical headlines over immigration.

Just wondering what reality is?

I can only talk of my own experience, but in Goole there is are a few central and eastern and european shops on the high street and as you walk around sometime you catch the odd conversation in another language. I used the shops often for the wider selection then just the big supermarkets and didn't care about the languages, but then again, I'm the metropolitan middle class elite, apparently.

I assume immigrants moved there because there were jobs available. For people to have the freedom to live and work where jobs are available is actually a good system in my humble opinion.

I believe that it's the job of government to protect the population from shitty employers, crap pay, low social mobility, inadequate housing, failing infrastructure etc. (as they do very well in Denmark despite FOM).

This immigration policy makes them look like amateurs.

The City I live in is 10% Polish
the local paper is published in Polish
lots and lots and lots of East European shops and restaurants and cafes

Their kids improve the school results
Their hard work ethic allows lots of businesses to thrive

This area voted Leave by the tiniest of margins

Far too many people in this country already.

@Eve

Wondering if it’s because the SE is predominantly an expensive area regarding housing etc? People on lower wages wouldn’t be able to afford to live there?

I wonder if that’s the reason you don’t see it in the same way as the pp up thread, where she said 10% of the population of the town is Polish and they have newspapers in Polish too as the demand is high. I thunk she thought it was a good thing but of course some people will see it as a negative.

I guess different parts of the country will see things differently and depending on what side of the fence they sit, whether it’s good or bad

Potkettle
My city is in the South East.
You have to remember that areas with high levels of immigration voted remain
Areas with low levels voted leave

There are immigrants, bringing in East European shops and languages, throughout the East Midlands. The East Midlands voted to leave, in quite high numbers. I am none too sure about this equation of high immigration=remain voters.

throwing
theconversation.com/hard-evidence-how-areas-with-low-immigration-voted-mainly-for-brexit-62138

Interesting you mention East Midlands Throwing - DHs family are from that area and have strong ties to another European country as have many others in the area. All came about as there was a generation who were prisoners of war and then after the war ended given jobs in the factories as not enough locals.

Ref the standards in schools, I did notice a comment in the press about how children with English as a second language are now getting better maths & English gcse results.

Doesn't surprise me I know a few people with European backgrounds in the area who have been there since wartime, for obvious reasons. It doesn't negate the recent surge in numbers at a time when local facilities were being run down. It's the combination of those factors, and the refusal of central government to listen to valid concerns, that have tipped people over the edge I reckon.

Dont worry, apparently one of the suggestions is that people should work for their pensions...

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20044862

Thanks for that link Listening, I just saw it. I have seen this link-up before, but I just think it is a little simplistic - it assumes no one moves around and talks to people from areas a couple of miles away. The famous example of how immigration has changed communities in the East Midlands is Shirebrook for example. Do you really think people living just down the road in Mansfield, or up the road in Bolsover - claimed as low immigrant / high Leave voter areas - are not aware of it?