Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

The EU has no negotiating strategy - according to the Telegraph

442 replies

BeaStoic · 09/02/2020 09:00

The EU is scoffing with panic. This week, its leaders neurotically laughed off the threat of a Parliament shutdown, as bureaucrats slammed their fists over post-Brexit budget cuts. Press officers tuttingly buried an economic report warning that Brexit will rock bloc economies.But they struggled to firefight raging speculation as to who might follow Britain out the door. As rumours rumbled of anItalexitdebt crisis, Marine Le Pen thundered that a global Eurosceptic movement has infiltrated Brussels.

Perhaps the most intriguing development this week, however, isMichel Barnier’s shift in persona. Mere months ago, Mr Barnier was gloomily instructing Britain to sign up to vassalage. Lecture highlights included “why Britain must take responsibility” (by becoming an EU satellite state) and why “choices” (for example liberty) must have “consequences”. But suddenly, the school master has a snake oil salesman. His arid presentations on Britain’s self-inflicted fate have morphed into butterypitches for “a best in class free trade agreement”.

Such a “best in class” deal could be otherwise described as Theresa Mayite vassalage. It entails sucking Britain into megalomaniac defence projects, allowing Brussels toplunder Britain’s fishing waters, and blessing Britain with freedom for the small price of sacrificing its competitiveness. This “exceptional offer” is beinggift-wrappedfree of charge in the tangled red ribbons of state aid paperwork and taxation regulations. Available fora limited time only (expires Dec 2020).

In reality, though Brussels knows that its chance to flog Britain the worst trade deal in history is slipping away. It can no longer fall back on the backstop to keep us locked in Hotel California. Boris Johnson’s thumping majority also means Britain’s "no deal" bargaining chip is back in play:aWTO Brexitwould pass through Parliament reasonably comfortably. Revelations this week that, in the event of no deal,Japanese car giant Nissan would considerdoublingdown on the UK to boost its domestic market share, and protect its Sunderland plant,underline the inconvenient truth:Project Fear premonitions are overblown, andBritain could cope perfectly well without a trade deal.

It is also becoming embarrassingly clear that the EU has no actual strategy. Only the clapped out choreography of a collapsing robo-bureaucracy. The most tedious of its “secret moves” is sequencing. Granted, this was how Brussels tripped up that lurching political equivalent to two left feet, Theresa May. She sealed her fate when she foolishly agreed to settle Northern Ireland before penning a divorce settlement.

But the idea that Boris Johnson’s government would fall for this again is laughable. Still the EU tries its luck: this week Mr Barnier said that before signing up to a trade deal, Britain would have to agree to the EU’s conditions - effectively trying to turn fishing and Gibraltar into the new Irish Border.

Another of the EU’s recycled moves is heel dragging. It intends to bog Britain down with absurd and nonsensically disparate demands until the deadline is near. The idea being that Boris Johnson will feel political pressure to avoid breaking his promise to settle Brexit by the end of the year - and thus sign up to a dud deal.

Britain’s counter-move is already evident - to negotiate trade deals with the United States and other countries, as talks with Brussels flounder; Cummings and co are determined to send out the message that if the EU does not want to engage in talks then that it can go jogging.

Indeed, Trade Secretary Liz Truss announced on Thursday that Britain is seeking huge reductions in tariffs from a trade deal with the United States. The Government also intends to begin negotiations with Japan, Australia and New Zealand in the coming months.

And so the EU gets more and more desperate. In a stumbling tribute to Orwellian doublespeak, its most ridiculous new wheeze is semantic. It is genuinely trying to get Britain to accidentally enslave itself by changing the meaning of basic words.

This includes the preposition “In”. Britain has rejected staying “in” the single market, with all the accompanying constrictions and conditions. Brussels’ solution? Offer “access” to the single market, with all the accompanying constrictions and conditions.

Then there is the oldest trick of the bureaucratic sociopath: the unflinching lie. My favourite peddled by the EU this week is that free movement must continue as the condition for any trade deal. Even though the EU has, in the Political Declaration, conceded the precise contrary.

It is increasingly clear that Brussels is the new Theresa May of these negotiations. And it is finally heading for a rude awakening.

OP posts:
malylis · 13/02/2020 22:55

You realise that while Britain didn't go "bankrupt" (incorrect terminology usage btw) , most of the areas that suffered in the miners strikes never recovered? Oh and also voted leave.

If you are so big on trade and trade deficits, why are you keen for one of our largest export industries to decline? We aren't going to be exporting as many services so we really need the visible goods!

MysteryTripAgain · 14/02/2020 07:22

That's not even considering the multiplier of what those job losses will bring

Wouldn’t get anywhere near the indirect job loses that followed closure of the mines. Entire villages collapsed as the nine was the main employer.

Nobody said the votes didn't count

So why have bad loser remain supporters cried for a second, third, fourth ..... nine hundred and ninety nine referendums ad infinitum until the result they want appears?

You seem to have veered away from our initial discussion here back to repeating points from previous threads

The thread is about negotiating strategy, but not many posts on that subject. Reason is that bad loser we know better remainers use these threads to knock Brexit in the futile hope both the EU and the UK will change the law.

MysteryTripAgain · 14/02/2020 08:05

Oh and also voted leave

Adds weight to view that people voted leave for intangible benefits.

jasjas1973 · 14/02/2020 08:15

should we try to manufacture all electronics here in the UK?

Didn't an MP recently suggest that within 2 years the UK would build an alternative to Huawei?
May said we would construct an alternative to Galileo.

So any unemployed car workers can quickly get new jobs at the re-opened Plessey factory at Beeston... just got to knock down all those houses.......

MysteryTripAgain · 14/02/2020 08:51

The UK's shift from manufacturing to services was always risky. Services are easier to relocate than manufacturing plants.

Some rattle on about UK car manufacturing being a big export, but forget that most are foreign owned. For me that's not UK manufacturing, but being labourers for other countries.

The Japanese in particular were clever. They built modular plants in the UK that can be dismantled and relocated more easily than steel and chemical plants.

The FTA between EU and Japan was to enable all manufacturing to return to Japan. Germany knows this, but were happy for it to happen to have a stab at the UK for threatening to buy less German cars in the futue or to add tariffs.

Peregrina · 14/02/2020 08:54

When did Plessey go, jasjas? I knew people at university, back in the 1970s whose fathers were senior managers there, and they were all very comfortably off, shall we say. The DF's would have been of an age to get nice retirement packages when the firm pulled out.

Peregrina · 14/02/2020 09:00

Didn't an MP recently suggest that within 2 years the UK would build an alternative to Huawei? May said we would construct an alternative to Galileo.

Didn't we go in with the others on Galileo because we weren't in a position to build something on our own? Even revitalising links with Australia and New Zealand isn't going to be enough. Not that the Johnson Government understand scientific/technical projects like that.

jasjas1973 · 14/02/2020 09:19

This idea the UK can suddenly fund a new start-up business to rival Nokia Ericsson or Huawei is utter fantasy.

We had leading telecoms companies in this country, Plessey/GPT, C&W GEC and we let them all go, sold or closed down, they made good products too... GPT made BT 's main exchange system X, only recently replaced...GPT telecoms systems were in almost all UK businesses, sold well abroad too, SA, NZ Finland, Aus... GEC took them over, then Seimens who gradually closed them down, GPT Beeston were developing newer Voip systems, all stopped in favour of Seimens stuff.

UK govts and business short termism are to blame and this is why i have little faith in the UK to negotiate long term deals with anyone.

MysteryTripAgain · 14/02/2020 09:23

@Jasjas

I know what you mean. My first job was with GEC in the UK.

Thought I had a job for life, but in the time I was there (mid 80s) there were lay offs. Eventually sold to Alstom.

malylis · 14/02/2020 09:26

Mystery, leavers demanded new referendums from 1975 despite losing at a greater margin. Also its been proven that leave broke electoral laws and it would have been called void had it been an election and binding.

But then the whole "demanding a new referendum" thing is a deflection.

A big reduction in the car industry here would be devastating to different towns and cities, as much as the mines would be.

You don't appear to know that the EU/Japan free trade deal started to be negotiated whilst the UK was a member and there is ulterior motive to spite the UK. As said before they won't be moving all production back to Japan either.

MysteryTripAgain · 14/02/2020 09:43

Mystery, leavers demanded new referendums from 1975 despite losing at a greater margin

If leavers had to wait 41 years for a referendum is it not fair that remainers wait 41 years too? So next referendum would be 2057.

Also its been proven that leave broke electoral laws and it would have been called void had it been an election and binding

It wasn't an election though.

But then the whole "demanding a new referendum" thing is a deflection

Stall tactic by remain in the hope Brexit would gradually be forgotten and swept under the carpet.

A big reduction in the car industry here would be devastating to different towns and cities, as much as the mines would be

Maybe, but UK survived the demise of the mines and the economy went on to prosper under the Thatcher regime.

You don't appear to know that the EU/Japan free trade deal started to be negotiated whilst the UK was a member and there is ulterior motive to spite the UK

Started in 2012. So you agree "there is ulterior motive to spite the UK"

As said before they won't be moving all production back to Japan either

How can you know that? Are you CEO of Toyota, Honda and Nissan?

Sounds more like wishful thinking. Honda pulled the plug on UK which according to official release from Honda was not Brexit related.

Suggest you do what my friend at Nissan Washington did. Learn to speak and write Japanese fluently. Might give you a chance to get a job in Japan in the future.

Good luck.

malylis · 14/02/2020 09:57

Once we joined leavers had to wait two years for the first referendum.

The UK economy went on to prosper under the Thatcher regime? It grew massively in inequality and as said areas that lost mines never recovered.

The is no ulterior motive to spite the UK. The UK was a member of the EU for the vast majority of the negotiation period.

As said there are too many partnerships on platforms and tech with EU firms to move production. Add that to lack of capacity in Japan because of the ageing population problem and other issues.

"My friend" anecdotal rubbish. There are no Japanese people in management in the UK, and one/two in the EU as a whole. No one gets transferred from Washington to Japan and no one apart from a director would have any contact with the global management.

You do seem to have a complex about the Germans though.

Peregrina · 14/02/2020 10:04

Mystery doesn't seem to understand the electoral system.
At the moment, we have a Parliamentary democracy but we have tried to graft Referenda on top of them. There is no reason why we couldn't do so, after all both Switzerland and Ireland have done. The difference is that they have considered the position and made some clear cut rules; rather than the 'find an old envelope and jot some notes on the back' style of rules the UK has had. The end result is that their citizens are well informed; ours aren't. Even then the Swiss have found that sometimes the results can't be implemented - but drafting the rules properly should account for that. None of this silly nonsense of Cameron saying that he would implement the result, when he should have said that he would ask Parliament to examine the possibility of implementing the result.

Peregrina · 14/02/2020 10:10

Maybe, but UK survived the demise of the mines and the economy went on to prosper under the Thatcher regime.

Could you get your minders to give you some better arguments.
Someone is overweight, they cut out some food and lose weight; they cut out all food, they starve to death.

Some industry being lost is OK, losing all industry is not. And as for the country prospering - only parts of it did. Still those who have now voted in the Tories in the supposed 'Red Wall' who were upset about losing the coal mines, now seem happy with the position.

MysteryTripAgain · 14/02/2020 10:26

Once we joined leavers had to wait two years for the first referendum

Difference is that there was no referendum to join in 1973.

As said there are too many partnerships on platforms and tech with EU firms to move production

Design of platforms and tech development can be done in the EU whilst manufacturing is done in Japan.

Add that to lack of capacity in Japan because of the ageing population problem and other issues

What's aging population got to do with anything? Automation and robots do the donkey work. Even if labor was required look at all the countries nearby that can provide cheap labour; China, India, Philippines, Vietnam, etc.

There are no Japanese people in management in the UK, and one/two in the EU as a whole

Who said he was management? If it was allowable I would give you his name and you look at his LinkedIn profile, but it is not allowable.

Look on the bright side. If car manufacturing collapses and all jobs are lost you can post in the future:

Hey Mystery the econimists were right all along about Brexit as 800,000 jobs have been lost in car manufacturing

MysteryTripAgain · 14/02/2020 10:28

Still those who have now voted in the Tories in the supposed 'Red Wall' who were upset about losing the coal mines, now seem happy with the position

That's why I think National Pride played a big part in the 2016 referendum. For some pride has no price tag.

Peregrina · 14/02/2020 10:42

Difference is that there was no referendum to join in 1973.

Make up your mind. Heath won the election and had a mandate to take the UK in. You seem to like Parliamentary democracy when it suits, and not like it when it doesn't.

BTW I am being pedantic - we spell it labour in the UK. We haven't become part of the US yet, although I suspect it would be the preference of the current Tory party, as long as they stay wealthy.

malylis · 14/02/2020 10:49

Nissan don't transfer staff between continents unless they are management.

You don't seem to understand the economies of scale involved in car manufacture, and why the tech is shared.

The EU/Japan trade deal is an excuse for leavers who don't know much about the industry for when the Japanese manufacturers leave the UK.

jasjas1973 · 14/02/2020 11:22

That's why I think National Pride played a big part in the 2016 referendum. For some pride has no price tag

True, if you're nr to or getting a pension, then issues with the economy make little difference, people over 55 far more likely to support brexit.

A ex brexitier friend of mine is about to lose her well paid job at a Uni, she is bricking it, can't sleep, counseling ..... she was very vocal on FB pre and post 2016, very quiet now - Pride doesn't pay the mortgage.

Of course the EU has little effect on our laws or our public services, if you take Johnsons promises, none couldn't be done whilst still in the EU, people were lied too.

You'll take that as "another know better" remark but it doesn't change the facts.

MysteryTripAgain · 14/02/2020 11:44

Make up your mind. Heath won the election and had a mandate to take the UK in. You seem to like Parliamentary democracy when it suits, and not like it when it doesn't

You have assumed that people voted for Heath was solely due to his wish to take UK into the EU. Joining the EU was not splashed all over the manifesto. Take a look at;

www.conservativemanifesto.com/1970/1970-conservative-manifesto.shtml

Sacredcauses · 14/02/2020 11:44

A second referendum would exacerbate all the problems and issues still resonating from the first one.
The referendum was a bad idea, badly organised and badly run.
David Cameron bears sole responsibility for that.
However, the result needs to be honoured, and we are now in the position of just having to make the best of it.
Not great I know, but there we are !

MysteryTripAgain · 14/02/2020 11:50

Nissan don't transfer staff between continents unless they are management

Maybe the move is a promotion to management?

You don't seem to understand the economies of scale involved in car manufacture, and why the tech is shared

Sharing the tech can still be done if all manufacturing is moved to Japan.

The EU/Japan trade deal is an excuse for leavers who don't know much about the industry for when the Japanese manufacturers leave the UK

As per Honda their decision to close the Swindon plant had nothing to do with Brexit. Maybe you need to make up your mind?

However, look on the bright side as you may be able to post in the future;

Hey Msytery 800,000 job loses in the UK car manufacturing industry due to Brexit. So the economists were right all the time

Peregrina · 14/02/2020 11:59

But funnily enough, I was old enough to vote in 1970 - so unlike Mystery I might actually have some memory of what the arguments were.
My constituency went Tory after being Labour since 1945; who knows whether the accelerating job losses were a factor. Without asking each voter, no one can say.

MysteryTripAgain · 14/02/2020 12:05

if you're nr to or getting a pension, then issues with the economy make little difference, people over 55 far more likely to support brexit

There are almost 15.5 million over 55s in the UK. That's about one third of the eligible electorate. Average life expectancy in the UK is 81. So for all those 55+ in 2016 to have passed on will take to 2042, maybe longer as life expectancy increases.

So Malylis is going to wait a long time before a referendum can take place without the; prejudices, ignorance, etc., as claimed by remainers that influenced the 2016 vote.

My view is that 20 years is more than enough time for other EU members to leave and the World will have two trade blocs. One in the West and the other in the East. The Eastern bloc will be massively stronger than the one in the West due to population.

MysteryTripAgain · 14/02/2020 12:08

@Peregrina

Conservatives have won 20 GE's since 1918 compared to labour's 8. Remember that some people vote by tradition without even looking at Manifesto's.

So was Heath's win in 1970 due to EU membership or based on fact that UK is traditionally a conservative country?

Swipe left for the next trending thread