How will we measure Brexit’s success or failure?

[Bearbehind]

I’ve been pondering this for ages now

In any ‘normal’ project you’d have targets, objectives, deadlines, reviews etc but for Brexit beyond 2 deadlines of 31/1/20 and 31/12/20 there’s nothing

People talk about politicians being accountable now but what do we expect them to deliver and by when

jas I wasn’t talking about ‘you’ specifically, I was talking about the fact it’s arrogant to insist people know better in general without understanding they look at it from different angles

It was you you started this bun fight by making it about Tory voters on about page 1

Likewise, its you who’s been swearing at me and calling me a ‘dog with a bone’

So maybe take a look at yourself before you criticise others

Funny , I've been told immigration didnt play apart in peoples decision to vote leave. This must be true because alot of leave voting areas have predominantly white british populations.

You mean the tories had no plan, not just Cameron. Was johnson still undecided at that point?

Funny , I've been told immigration didnt play apart in peoples decision to vote leave. This must be true because alot of leave voting areas have predominantly white british populations.

Seriously ghost have you looked at the calendar?

It is 2020 not 2017

Your comments are utterly pointless now

Ffs Mystery- it is hugely complicated because of its ramifications of that "simple" binary choice.....
It's the car factories closing..... but it's those people who have ok incomes all of a sudden reliant on benefits - no descretionary spending money to have a meal at the local pub, buy a bike from the shop down the road ..... all really small things - but that all add up to strain and stress to local businesses......

It's farmers not being able to sell their lamb into Europe (their main market) ......

it's banks moving head offices to Paris , Frankfurt and Amsterdam...... yes everyone hates bankers - but it's all the money they spend employing cleaners, dog walkers, nanny's etc

It's a poorer country, with less opportunity to earn money, more people reliant on welfare - but the tax take lower ....... that's the true trickle down economics- that web being broken .....

It's the something like £90m that Cambridge uni gets from the EU

It's financing things like the Eden project

These things all affect individuals and communities and to pretend it doesn't really ticks me off
And that's just the start ......

I've been told immigration didnt play apart in peoples decision to vote leave

By whom?

You mean the tories had no plan

Neither did labour even though in 2017 election their manifesto said they would honour the result

Bear, if people had specific reasons for voting leave 4 years ago then surely the government is going to have to factor them in to future policy in order to honour the result fully. It might be a way of measuring success?

These things all affect individuals and communities and to pretend it doesn't really ticks me off

Those who voted for Boris and his promise to deliver democracy think differently

ghost that goes back to the point above about it being so hard to measure because everyone’s success factors are different doesn’t it?

I think it’s probably the reality

hard to measure because everyone’s success factors are different doesn’t it?

Yes.

For me leave was about changes to trade. For others it was about immigration. For some it was about telling EU to get screwed. For some it was about WWII. The different reasons could be in measured in the millions

What changes to trade do you want Mystery? Do you think divergence from EU is likely to improve growth, and if so, how, as most trade commentators disagree?

"These things all affect individuals and communities and to pretend it doesn't really ticks me off

Those who voted for Boris and his promise to deliver democracy think differently"

People make a big deal about how we are all so connected.... but I think modern day society has created "silos" of people(obviously this is a generalisation). I am 99% sure my sister voted Tory . She is a passionate remainer. I KNOW! but when we discussed election issues, I realised that she really does not know how miserable it is for the other half. She doesn't have any contact with anyone who lives on benefits.... and how would she , kids at private school (actually one that offers some really good scholarships - but those kids although there parents could afford the school fees would never be described as poor), her life revolves around kids school, running the family, living in a little affluent village with no social housing and gardening.
Whereas I have very different interests and a little business where I meet people and have become friends with people across the spectrum.
I will add- sister and husband are completely self made. Husbands family long history of working in the pits - but his generation have all done really well for themselves.

She does realise the inter-connectiveness of society- but has no concept of how grim it really is at the bottom.

Anyway - I think that's a huge issue in society- and maybe it's accentuated in the uk by the class system - people are too insulated in "their" world.

FWIW coming from a leave voting safe labour seat in the NW, many of the leavers I know voted leave because Cameron told them not to, ie a sort of protest vote against the ruling elite. Boris is very popular among those I know who voted leave for that reason. I think he could pretty much now do any deal, including no deal or CU/SM, and they would insist that he is going a great job and that he did exactly what they voted for.

Since 1999 UK has had a trade deficit with the EU that has grown to £64 billion even though UK is the third largest to the EU. However, UKs trade with non EU Countries has resulted in a trade surplus of £44 billion.

EU represents 15% of Global trade and shrinking. Rest of the World is the remaining 85% and growing.

Members of the EU are not permitted to make trade deals with other countries without EU commission approval. EU is an oligopoly that protects its own profits by denying access to cheaper alternatives from outside the EU.

Ever visited a non EU country on holiday and wondered why some goods are massively cheaper compared to UK?

What do you actually think comments like that are going to achieve?

Literally nothing (except to annoy a few people with a low annoyance threshold). It's a parenting forum not a think tank.

It depends on how you define success and whose idea of success it is. Did anyone really ever even think this far?
It sounds what you're talking about is accountability.

For some success means - the symbolic act of leaving on 31st January. Maybe they don't even care what comes after...what matters is they won.

Maybe for others, success might mean the fulfillment of the promises liesthat the leave campaign made. Maybe they will be waiting for all of those trade deals and prosperity and the 350 million to the NHS, then it will be a success.

At this point, who really knows. I honestly think some people don't really care as long as we leave the EU and immigration is dealt with (in their eyes).

Or maybe some will measure success against such intangible concepts as 'take back control' and 'putting the Great back into Great Britain', but who really knows how you measure that.

But if it's a question of accountability rather than success, (success in whatever form would surely take years to manifest), then the government, along with the Leave campaign and leave voters have to follow through on everything they said was possible. They wanted it, they have it, they own it, it's their responsibility now.

What do you actually think comments like that are going to achieve?

I'm sorry Bear, but your lack of self awareness, or of the irony of your statements makes your overblown sense of self importance quite hilarious.

What do you think you are achieving here by telling people that they just have to accept a buggering by Boris?

Really. Give your head a wobble (to use a Mumsnet favourite).

that they just have to accept a buggering by Boris?

Until the next election comes along the entire UK has to go along with Boris.

Buggered by Boris

Catchy little phrase and the UK loves a catchy three word phrase

Brexit is shit, the people who voted for it by and large did not know what they were voting for
This isn't arrogance . It's a genuinely held opinion that I agree with. I would add that the politicians who pushed for it also didn't know the full implications. It is telling that there are posters on here who can't argue against this statement so instead just say that we shouldn't even express an opinion. If you are so sure it's not true, why not provide some evidence to disprove it?

Yep, 4 years on we're asked to set parameters for successes on something that was never defined.

Also note how the "winners" project their anger onto the "losers" - stop talking about the past/don't call us stupid etc. This started straight after the referendum when the tanking pound was blamed on remainers "talking down" the economy!

Yeah. Boris can make his pals in the media and his toady MPs shut up about Brexit. But he can't make ordinary people shut up about it and if we think Brexit is stupid nativist vanity projet and our prime minister is a lazy racist arse, then we are allowed to say those things.

Of course it doesn't achieve anything (except winding people up a bit), but I repeat: this is a parenting forum not a think tank. What is said here has zero impact in the real world except as a place to vent for people in the front line of Brexit.

Yeah ghost all this anger from the winners will never cease to amaze me. Why are Brexiters and Tory voters so brittle and angry all the time?

Interesting that NAO says Govt went into the HS2 project without any idea as to its complexities or costs...

But we trust them to know all about leaving the EU, an infinitely more complex and costly venture, not only that but they handed the decision to the public, who according to Mystery voted because they don't like foreigners, mainly the black/brown variety who don't tend to come from the EU, though areas that voted leave with very little immigration must have done so because they are just a bunch of racist little englanders, if Mystery is correct in his/her analysis?