How will we measure Brexit’s success or failure?

[Bearbehind]

I’ve been pondering this for ages now

In any ‘normal’ project you’d have targets, objectives, deadlines, reviews etc but for Brexit beyond 2 deadlines of 31/1/20 and 31/12/20 there’s nothing

People talk about politicians being accountable now but what do we expect them to deliver and by when

but it automatically carries less weight than the opinion of someone who can.
There's no automatically about it.

If you had had to listen to the bullshit we have had to endure on these threads from people in tbe US , the Far East etc who do NOT have the right to vote here, maybe you'd give more of a shit too.

bellini, I don't even know how to respond.
Are you seriously suggesting that because I used the word "there" to refer to a country I am currently not in, I am emphasizing its apartness in an attempt to demonstrate its fundamental differentness?
That's a lot of responsibility for a little word.
I can't think of an adverb I could use that would neither dishonestly suggest I was currently in the UK nor convey this heavy load of implicit othering.

I think I'm going to bow out of this discussion, TBH.

If you had had to listen to the bullshit we have had to endure on these threads from people in tbe US , the Far East etc who do NOT have the right to vote here, maybe you'd give more of a shit too.
What makes you think I haven't?

I have lots to say about the US electoral system. I have family there. I follow it closely. But my opinion on that is worth less than that if a US voter when it comes to how it could be changed.

Brexit will not be a success by any measure
because even its proponents cannot agree what any of the measures are

Auld, you could preface your post with " I don't live in tbe UK" for those of us who don't follow your every word.

I have lots to say about the US electoral system
Presumably you haven't voted there though. I have voted in the UK for decades as have others on here. Not the same at all.

Which is fine, if you are registered to vote here. You have a personal investment in this country.
"Othering" has played such a massive part in this election I'm surprised you aren't more careful about how you talk about the Uk electorate.

They were a second referendum party. Did you not bother to read anything?

How does that distiguish between being a leave or remain party?

Othering has played such a key part in how part of the UK electorate has massively fucked up the lives of thousands of people living in the EU, who were disenfranchised by their own government despite its own promises to change the 15-year rule, that I'm surprised - or perhaps not - that you are not more careful how you address them.

I'm out.

Until I know you are in tbe EU, I have to assume you are another Mystery . Or all the others. Who might be the same person.
It would appear that even Mystery has had tbe good grace to come back here and bestow their tax money on us.

I would argue that the opinions of those who have a right to vote and those affected by the outcome of that vote carry equal weight. They're not necessarily the same people.

I would argue that the opinions of those who have a right to vote and those affected by the outcome of that vote carry equal weight. They're not necessarily the same people.

The most-affected group in this whole sorry fuck-up are Britons in Europe, like Auld and myself, who had no say and are getting fucked over by fucking racists like Boris fucking Johnson because we are somehow not British enough.

Excuse my language, but the idea that we shouldn't have an opinion on our rights being stripped away is outrageous.

The most-affected group in this whole sorry fuck-up are Britons in Europe, like Auld and myself, who had no say and are getting fucked over by fucking racists like Boris fucking Johnson because we are somehow not British enough.

I can’t actually believe you said that

You seriously think ‘the most affected group’ are people who don’t even live in the UK

I am truly gobsmacked

You want a list of the rights I lose?

• the right to vote (for anything, anywhere)
• the right to work on the other side of the EU border just down the road
• the right to have my elderly mother join me when she is too old to live alone
• the right to join my elderly mother in the U.K. to provide care if she needs it (due to the potential loss of residence + the wait for NHS cover)

Too fucking right I'm going to have an opinion on this.

Quite how you think I don't know about tbe negative impact on Brits in the EU, I don't know. Quite how you think they are the worst affected, I also don't know.

You are perfectly entitled to an opinion on Brexit

You are not entitled to say that you will be more affected by Brexit than people who live here as it’s simply not true

Aside from anything else you could move back if you thought that was really true

Quite how you think they are the worst affected, I also don't know.

Worst affected in terms of loss of rights (EU in U.K. close behind, but they keep rights in 27 countries).

Not necessarily worst off in terms of economic impacts, though it depends: British workers in Europe being refused work because they have lose FoM rights to provide cross border services, or because potential employers don't know what the situation will be on 1/1/21 might want to argue that case.

Aside from anything else you could move back if you thought that was really true

This is an extraordinary facile comment: you're suggesting that I should just up sticks and leave my disabled husband and kids?!

So a kid in the UK who's older sister had the right to get a job or study in the EU , but they can't they aren't as badly affected, are they?
You should know better than anyone that FOM gave UK kids from impoverished backgrounds the right to work in the EU and to have a route out of poverty. But that's gone now. They gave to find another route. I went to school with kids who did. Whose own kids have lost the right. Not gap yah shit.

This is an extraordinary facile comment: you're suggesting that I should just up sticks and leave my disabled husband and kids?!

No, I’m saying you should understand the fact that you are not the group who will be the most affected by Brexit

The most affected will be though of us who actually still live here

It's not really a competition..... but I thought most countries in the EU were being very good at supplying certainty to Brits who have lived in their EU country- are settled?
The same can not be said about EU citizens who live in the UK - paid tax here, and some for many decades....

It's not just about residency rights mrslaughan (at least it's not for me personally - though I have friends whose young adult children may have lost residency rights in the country they grew up in, due to studying abroad).

Immigration is a devolved matter in the EU so while there are some rights guaranteed by the withdrawal agreement, a lot depends on the country where you live. Just like in the U.K., it will be older, less tech-savvy, less linguistically-competent and lower income people who will struggle. And at least the EU in the U.K. know that their governments have their backs: we have had precisely zero support or advice from the U.K. govt.

The most affected will be though of us who actually still live here

Potentially most affected economically, but that depends: there are Britons in Europe who have already lost jobs or seen their pension value decrease by a quarter or more. (That pension that won't be uprated in future!)

But in terms of rights, I think it is reasonable to say that Britons in Europe are losing more rights than anyone else, if only because they will lose all rights to vote (but it's not just that - the loss of the right to work cross-border or the right to family reunification is a huge issue for many of us).