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Brexit

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism

951 replies

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2019 16:11

The post election autopsy is starting to show something up. Finally. Brexit is part of wider political issues and fractures. This isn't exactly rocket science but it's an inconvenient truth that has been ignored.

We have something of a conflict going on between economic conservatism and social conservatism.

The Tories as the party of business were economically conservative and put this ahead of other issues. "It's the economy stupid."

But as this has continued this has opened up social division and the gap between rich and poor has laid bare social issues.

This is where Labour and the LDs are now becoming something of a cropper. In Brexit they continued the idea that the economy was the most important this and in doing so has fuelled the idea that they don't care about social issues. They are perceived to be putting the interests of businesses as more important than those people.

Of course it's not as straightforward as this. To fund ways to stop social issues you need good economics.

Add to this the progressive movement which has become authoritarian and has lost sight of certain social issues in favour of identity politics and you start to have a real issue. One that the EU as an identity has become caught up in in this country. The wedge to drive in the cracks.

Issues haven't been tackled because identity is more important and was prioritised. And we've had scandals arising out of this.

Instead we've had the increasing demonisation of social conservativism and the idea that if you question certain things you are backward or bigoted as a means to silence people. And now we've had a massive backlash against that generalisation and lack of nuance. And not seeing what was happening and having a self awareness of how this read to more socially conservative types.

That's not to say there aren't massive issues in social conservatism which can be indeed racist, homophobic, sexist and yes very bigoted in nature. The trouble is that the failure to be able to tackle nuance which identity politics forced and a failure to understand that the pace of change needs to be set by public consensus rather than top down authoritarianism has lead us to where we are now.

Rights set up to protect certain groups have failed in practice even if they exist in law. And those who professed to stand for the interests of certain groups forgot the origins of rights.

Thus undermining the entire centre left project, which in some respects the EU embodies.

We now find ourselves in a divided and ruled scenario where those who should have benefitted most from rights can be exploited by an elite who have successfully seen an opportunity to step into the void that identity politics created.

And now the left and liberals have to wake up to this reality and come up with a solution to it.

There is a lot of uncomfortable and difficult decisions to be made here.

The solution to the culture war isn't to push back harder and to become more authoritarian in tone about the right of 'right and wrong'.

It's to address why identity politics caused the left and liberals to forget their origins and purpose and why they established certain ideals in the first place.

Meanwhile whilst they figure out just how they lost their way and were blinkered by their own self righteousness, everything that the centre left project established will be gradually unpicked. Or if Johnson can do it, without being challenged, at some considerable pace.

It comes down to remembering your roots and having a solid connection with the reality of people's lives rather than high minded idealism and a sense of superiority. This is what people saw regardless of the noble intent of Labour and the Lib Dems.

'Social conservatism' were dirty words. Now they are the reality of the present. Whether we like it or not.

Economic stability has become secondary to this desire for social conservatism.

Labour and the Lib Dems have to adapt to this and will have to offer something to those with more socially conservative views to move forward now. The alternative is a very long wait outside in the cold of politics.

Liberal democracy is about balancing needs. You have to identify needs and you have to understand how to balance them for liberal democracy to thrive. Failure to do the former means the latter fails.

And here we are.

2020 beckons.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New to all.

OP posts:
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DGRossetti · 31/12/2019 19:29

Oh and wealth creators don't exist, talking about them in these terms are akin to talking about creationism.

How about "disrupters" Grin

Alsohuman · 31/12/2019 19:30

Oh and wealth creators don't exist

Not someone who starts a business from nothing, expands it and ends up employing lots of people?

ListeningQuietly · 31/12/2019 19:37

Alsohuman
There are entrepreneurs
but wealth creators was part of the "trickle down" theory which has been totally disproven.

Jeff Bezos has made a massive company and is eye wateringly wealthy
because he pays his staff shit and treats them worse

he is also predatory and destroys many other people's businesses through deliberate loss leader strategies

Billionaires are a sign of market failure

malylis · 31/12/2019 19:37

Nope they respond to demand in the market, they don't create the wealth independently of society either.

The term "wealth creator" gives them a special place which indicates that they alone have special status and must never be contained.

There was no massive tax increases on higher earners or corporations, in many cases lower than other major OECD nations.

borntobequiet · 31/12/2019 23:04

Not planning to stay up to see the NY in - haven’t done so for some years now. In the immediate future I will concentrate on me and mine. I’ll focus on feminist issues and stay away from party politics. No party appeals to me at present. Thank you everyone for your gracious company and conversation over the last few years. I so appreciate all of you, even those I largely disagree with. Thanks in particular, Red, for your oversight and input. Love and best wishes to all x

ListeningQuietly · 31/12/2019 23:22

PMK for the end of the decade ....
LeClercs cat

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism
ListeningQuietly · 31/12/2019 23:22

My new cat

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism
ListeningQuietly · 31/12/2019 23:24

My long standing cat

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism
tobee · 31/12/2019 23:55

He's having a lie down there though! Grin

ListeningQuietly · 01/01/2020 00:23

Its 2020
A new year
A new decade
same shit different day

BercowsFestiveFlamingo · 01/01/2020 00:28

I don't think I've ever felt so sad watching the fireworks on tv. Dd1 was bouncing around as I let her stay up and she's so excited for a new decade and I'm just very aware of what's coming: UC, brexit, more uncertainty and worry.

How are all those fireworks financed? They struck me as excessive and all I could think of was how that money could have been better spent.

I've never liked new year but this one feels rather desolate.

Peregrina · 01/01/2020 00:29

Happy new year to people. Who thought 10 years ago that we would be in this situation now? So who knows what the next decade might bring? Things do come along out of the blue. Some things we can almost predict - In ten years time we are very likely to have King Charles on the throne, or even King William.

For those Tory voters wishing for stability, I would like to ask them how they think this can happen with a Government led by a liar and a cheat who makes a mess of just about everything he touches, and expects someone else to bail him out.

yolofish · 01/01/2020 00:39

On a personal level, this time last year I honestly did not know whether DH would be alive or dead by the end of 2019. Luckily, very luckily, after life-changing surgery and chemo/radio, it seems likely that he will be alive at the end of 2020 and hopefully for very many more years.

For me, that kind of puts the political shitfest into some kind of perspective - but then we are relatively financially ok. I just really really hope that Johnson's pledges come true and that life gets better for so many in this country. One can hope.

tobee · 01/01/2020 00:41

Happy New Year to everyone and the best of luck and good health to you and your loved ones! X

lonelyplanetmum · 01/01/2020 00:45

Happy new decade to all. Thank you for your insights, education and company over the last few years. Having virtual contact on here reminds me that I'm not alone.
16 million plus did not want this government or Brexit. Your presence keeps the whole surreal debacle in some context.
Thank you to all.

PawFives · 01/01/2020 01:06

Happy New Year everyone, particularly Red and the regular posters for keeping these threads going. Whatever happens over the next year, at least there’s the insightful and entertaining commentary on here to look forward to.

mathanxiety · 01/01/2020 06:49

China, Russia and Iran to hold joint naval drills from Friday

They may well be too late for drills. DS has a US Ma rine friend who is on 48 hour standby expecting to be deployed to Ira q.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/01/2020 08:36

"China, Russia and Iran to hold joint naval drills from Friday
.....a US Marine friend who is on 48 hour standby"

2020 not looking great Sad

Mockers2020Vision · 01/01/2020 09:41

That was indeed one shitty decade. Broadband and a few good TV shows. That's about it.

This will need to be a decade of economic restructuring. Private cars will have to go. Commuting will need to be massively reduced. And we shall need to rebuild the bridges with our neighbours we are just about to take a sledgehammer to.

Happy New Year

BercowsFestiveFlamingo · 01/01/2020 09:44

What's this about 48 stand by?

CustardT · 01/01/2020 09:49

Trump does need to start a war. Every US president who was re-elected for a 2nd term started a war in their first term. It improves their popularity....

Mockers2020Vision · 01/01/2020 09:50

What's this about 48 stand by?

Spot of bother in Baghdad at the moment. Trumpy may bomb, or pull out, Saigon style, or both, depends how his dump goes when he wakes up.

BercowsFestiveFlamingo · 01/01/2020 09:53

Oh god. Just what the world needs.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 01/01/2020 09:58

Happy New Year.

That was a chilling tweet from Trump. Just the first words I needed to read at the start of a new decade.

Xenia · 01/01/2020 10:02

Iran needs to know that it cannot mess with us. I am not in favour of our interfering abroad however so if we try to have less dependence on oil etc from appalling regimes so much the better - we can let them stew in their own juice. I have been there twice for work and although most of the people I met there were lovely the regime is absolutely dreadful and they don't have a proper rule of law.

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