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Brexit

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism

951 replies

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2019 16:11

The post election autopsy is starting to show something up. Finally. Brexit is part of wider political issues and fractures. This isn't exactly rocket science but it's an inconvenient truth that has been ignored.

We have something of a conflict going on between economic conservatism and social conservatism.

The Tories as the party of business were economically conservative and put this ahead of other issues. "It's the economy stupid."

But as this has continued this has opened up social division and the gap between rich and poor has laid bare social issues.

This is where Labour and the LDs are now becoming something of a cropper. In Brexit they continued the idea that the economy was the most important this and in doing so has fuelled the idea that they don't care about social issues. They are perceived to be putting the interests of businesses as more important than those people.

Of course it's not as straightforward as this. To fund ways to stop social issues you need good economics.

Add to this the progressive movement which has become authoritarian and has lost sight of certain social issues in favour of identity politics and you start to have a real issue. One that the EU as an identity has become caught up in in this country. The wedge to drive in the cracks.

Issues haven't been tackled because identity is more important and was prioritised. And we've had scandals arising out of this.

Instead we've had the increasing demonisation of social conservativism and the idea that if you question certain things you are backward or bigoted as a means to silence people. And now we've had a massive backlash against that generalisation and lack of nuance. And not seeing what was happening and having a self awareness of how this read to more socially conservative types.

That's not to say there aren't massive issues in social conservatism which can be indeed racist, homophobic, sexist and yes very bigoted in nature. The trouble is that the failure to be able to tackle nuance which identity politics forced and a failure to understand that the pace of change needs to be set by public consensus rather than top down authoritarianism has lead us to where we are now.

Rights set up to protect certain groups have failed in practice even if they exist in law. And those who professed to stand for the interests of certain groups forgot the origins of rights.

Thus undermining the entire centre left project, which in some respects the EU embodies.

We now find ourselves in a divided and ruled scenario where those who should have benefitted most from rights can be exploited by an elite who have successfully seen an opportunity to step into the void that identity politics created.

And now the left and liberals have to wake up to this reality and come up with a solution to it.

There is a lot of uncomfortable and difficult decisions to be made here.

The solution to the culture war isn't to push back harder and to become more authoritarian in tone about the right of 'right and wrong'.

It's to address why identity politics caused the left and liberals to forget their origins and purpose and why they established certain ideals in the first place.

Meanwhile whilst they figure out just how they lost their way and were blinkered by their own self righteousness, everything that the centre left project established will be gradually unpicked. Or if Johnson can do it, without being challenged, at some considerable pace.

It comes down to remembering your roots and having a solid connection with the reality of people's lives rather than high minded idealism and a sense of superiority. This is what people saw regardless of the noble intent of Labour and the Lib Dems.

'Social conservatism' were dirty words. Now they are the reality of the present. Whether we like it or not.

Economic stability has become secondary to this desire for social conservatism.

Labour and the Lib Dems have to adapt to this and will have to offer something to those with more socially conservative views to move forward now. The alternative is a very long wait outside in the cold of politics.

Liberal democracy is about balancing needs. You have to identify needs and you have to understand how to balance them for liberal democracy to thrive. Failure to do the former means the latter fails.

And here we are.

2020 beckons.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New to all.

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malylis · 01/01/2020 10:13

"Iran needs to know it can't mess with us".

Without US backing Iran would piss all over us in a war. Even with US backing Iran isn't Iraq and a much harder fight.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/01/2020 10:15

Iran is a theocratic hellhole, like Saudi Arabia
but the former is likely to get bombed, while the latter must be grovelled to

Profit before people

BigChocFrenzy · 01/01/2020 10:16

I hope that joining Trump's wars for oil and distraction is not the agreed price for a US FTA after Brexit

Mockers2020Vision · 01/01/2020 10:24

Invert Corn Syrup and maggot juice with your Domestos Chicken, Whoppeeee!!!

Songsofexperience · 01/01/2020 10:33

I hope that joining Trump's wars for oil and distraction is not the agreed price for a US FTA after Brexit

Sincerely hope so. Chilling thought. But that's what brought down Blair- why would Johnson risk making the same mistake?

Peregrina · 01/01/2020 10:43

Johnson might think he's as Teflon coated as Blair thought he was.

DGRossetti · 01/01/2020 11:59

But overall the US views G.W. Bush much more favourably than the UK views Tony Blair. Not all things are equal, and very often trying to transplant ideas from the US to UK simply fail miserably.

DGRossetti · 01/01/2020 15:12

.

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism
Jason118 · 01/01/2020 15:22

I'm sure it's just a coincidence

Exclusions for racism in primary schools in England up more than 40% www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-50331687

ArseDarkly · 01/01/2020 15:23

Johnson might think he's as Teflon coated as Blair thought he was

And he'd be right

Clavinova · 01/01/2020 16:34

DGRossetti
Normal service has been resumed, and "GET OUT" letters have started again. ...
www.euromovescotland.org.uk/eu-academics-no-thanks/

The article was reposted from a blog written in January 2017 - it's not a new article;

"No longer welcome: the EU academics in Britain told to ‘make arrangements to leave’"
blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2017/01/27/eu-academics-britain-told-to-leave/

In fact, the overall number of academics from the EU working at UK universities has increased - from 35,920 to 37,255 according to figures from the Higher Education Statistics Agency (Hesa).

"The Liberal Democrats’ untrue claims about a “Brexit brain drain” at British universities."
www.conservativehome.com/leftwatch/2019/12/exclusive-the-liberal-democrats-untrue-claims-about-a-brexit-brain-drain-at-british-universities.html

From the article:
"Hang on a second."
"So these numbers are for people leaving their university jobs. There’s no data at all on where they went when they did so. Indeed, the Lib Dems do not seem to have asked for any destination data.This means these figures do not show how many ‘EU academics have quit the UK’ at all.They show how many EU academics have left jobs at UK universities–including those who, for example, left one UK university job to go to another UK university job."

Scotland hit by brain drain, The National, 28 December 2019
www.thenational.scot/news/18125830.scotland-hit-brexit-brain-drain-eu-academics-leave-universities/

This article is misleading as well.The LibDems' own spreadsheet (reproduced in the conservative home link) shows:

University of Edinburgh - 1,272 EU academics have left Edinburgh University since the referendum - whilst the number of EU academics employed by the university has risen from 1,595 to 1,825.

University of Glasgow - 776 EU academics have left - whilst the number employed has increased from 685 to 920.

At least there's someone with a bit of sense working at the University of St. Andrews. From a similar FOI request in 2018:

"Having consulted colleagues as part of the data gathering process, I am writing to make you aware that the data held by the University is unlikely to provide the level of understanding that you are seeking. For example, from your communication the main focus of your interest would appear to be in determining if the study you make reference to is an accurate reflection of the position in terms of EU academics leaving UK universities over the past year. From the information we hold, we are able to supply you with the number of EU academic staff who left and joined the University of St Andrews in 2017 (and the preceding year if required) however, this data will not necessarily be a comparable indicator in terms of the study findings referred to.This is because staff leaving the university may be doing so to move on to other UK universities and this is not information that is routinely captures in our records."

One reason for the high turn over of staff here?
2016:
"Universities accused of 'importing Sports Direct model' for lecturers' pay."
"Academics teaching or doing research in British universities will typically have spent years earning doctorates or other qualifications, yet more than half of them–53%–manage on some form of insecure, non-permanent contract."

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/nov/16/universities-accused-of-importing-sports-direct-model-for-lecturers-pay

Clavinova · 01/01/2020 16:43

I'm sure it's just a coincidence. Exclusions for racism in primary schools in England up more than 40%

The link says a 40% rise since 2006-07

"496 temporary exclusions for racism from primary schools in the academic year 2017-18 -a rise of 40% on 2006-07, when there were 350 exclusions."

Clavinova · 01/01/2020 16:44

Missed this:
"the number of exclusions for racism across all schools in England has fallen over the same period."

ListeningQuietly · 01/01/2020 17:14

TBH I share Clavinovas deep scepticism about school exclusion data.
The numbers are TINY (496 out of a primary school population of 4,727,090)
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/812539/Schools_Pupils_and_their_Characteristics_2019_Main_Text.pdf
AND
Temporary exclusions include a single day for a single inappropriate comment by one child in one school

howabout · 01/01/2020 17:20

My first reaction to the Headline was surprise that exclusion would be deemed to be the most appropriate response to this in primary school age children.

ListeningQuietly · 01/01/2020 17:23

howabout
I would assume that its more to give a message to the parents to adjust their parenting style than the actual child

BigChocFrenzy · 01/01/2020 17:29

More relevant would be the police reports of racism and racial harassment

Police chiefs reported a sharp spike in the year after the referendum

Has this gone down since to where it was in 2015 ?
I haven't seen the newest figures

BigChocFrenzy · 01/01/2020 17:29

(I mean in the whole population, not in schools)

BigChocFrenzy · 01/01/2020 17:32

There has been a sharp fall in E27 immigration to the UK since the referendum

However, this could also be because of the fall in the pound making pay less attractive, not only because of a more hostile environment from officialdom and public.

The E27 immigrants have been replaced by non-EU, mostly from developing countries, so it would take one hell of a Sterling crash for it to be uneconomical for them

HateIsNotGood · 01/01/2020 19:43

I've a question. EU Immigration has dropped but apparently 'immigration' has increased. My basic understanding is that there are various 'visas' available based on various criteria - family, work, study, asylum, etc. Whilst I'm not aware of any 'caps' in any category, I'm similarly unaware of any immigration category that is unlimited.

Does anyone here have an exclipable explanation for this?

Thx In Advancio.

ListeningQuietly · 01/01/2020 19:50

with the absolute caveat that the UK Government has absolutely no idea how many foreigners live in the UK on long standing ILR status

when the 10 year visas came in, the Home Office best guess was around 300,000 which was rapidly proven to be out by a factor of ten

there is a census due in April 2021
if the Government do carry out their more stupid ideas about voter suppression
and continue the Hostile Environment
the figures will probably be some of the least accurate in history

which will have a massive negative impact on good governance and public life

HateIsNotGood · 01/01/2020 19:50

Thanks LQ - I'll have a look at that.

chatongris · 01/01/2020 19:51

No one really knows what the actual figure for immigration. The estimates are based on surveys, not a count of actual migrants.

Migration numbers are primarily dictated by "demand pull" from employers, not by artificial government limits. If companies can't find workers they will either import them, or export the jobs.

Whatever the government wants you to believe, we already have an Australian-style system, and such a system is not incompatible with higher non-EU immigration (Australia has a much higher migrant population than the U.K.).

ListeningQuietly · 01/01/2020 19:57

Also, bear in mind that the UK is pretty much unique in the OECD in counting overseas students as immigrants
thanks Theresa
so the Chinese university students count as immigrants for their three years here ....