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Brexit

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism

951 replies

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2019 16:11

The post election autopsy is starting to show something up. Finally. Brexit is part of wider political issues and fractures. This isn't exactly rocket science but it's an inconvenient truth that has been ignored.

We have something of a conflict going on between economic conservatism and social conservatism.

The Tories as the party of business were economically conservative and put this ahead of other issues. "It's the economy stupid."

But as this has continued this has opened up social division and the gap between rich and poor has laid bare social issues.

This is where Labour and the LDs are now becoming something of a cropper. In Brexit they continued the idea that the economy was the most important this and in doing so has fuelled the idea that they don't care about social issues. They are perceived to be putting the interests of businesses as more important than those people.

Of course it's not as straightforward as this. To fund ways to stop social issues you need good economics.

Add to this the progressive movement which has become authoritarian and has lost sight of certain social issues in favour of identity politics and you start to have a real issue. One that the EU as an identity has become caught up in in this country. The wedge to drive in the cracks.

Issues haven't been tackled because identity is more important and was prioritised. And we've had scandals arising out of this.

Instead we've had the increasing demonisation of social conservativism and the idea that if you question certain things you are backward or bigoted as a means to silence people. And now we've had a massive backlash against that generalisation and lack of nuance. And not seeing what was happening and having a self awareness of how this read to more socially conservative types.

That's not to say there aren't massive issues in social conservatism which can be indeed racist, homophobic, sexist and yes very bigoted in nature. The trouble is that the failure to be able to tackle nuance which identity politics forced and a failure to understand that the pace of change needs to be set by public consensus rather than top down authoritarianism has lead us to where we are now.

Rights set up to protect certain groups have failed in practice even if they exist in law. And those who professed to stand for the interests of certain groups forgot the origins of rights.

Thus undermining the entire centre left project, which in some respects the EU embodies.

We now find ourselves in a divided and ruled scenario where those who should have benefitted most from rights can be exploited by an elite who have successfully seen an opportunity to step into the void that identity politics created.

And now the left and liberals have to wake up to this reality and come up with a solution to it.

There is a lot of uncomfortable and difficult decisions to be made here.

The solution to the culture war isn't to push back harder and to become more authoritarian in tone about the right of 'right and wrong'.

It's to address why identity politics caused the left and liberals to forget their origins and purpose and why they established certain ideals in the first place.

Meanwhile whilst they figure out just how they lost their way and were blinkered by their own self righteousness, everything that the centre left project established will be gradually unpicked. Or if Johnson can do it, without being challenged, at some considerable pace.

It comes down to remembering your roots and having a solid connection with the reality of people's lives rather than high minded idealism and a sense of superiority. This is what people saw regardless of the noble intent of Labour and the Lib Dems.

'Social conservatism' were dirty words. Now they are the reality of the present. Whether we like it or not.

Economic stability has become secondary to this desire for social conservatism.

Labour and the Lib Dems have to adapt to this and will have to offer something to those with more socially conservative views to move forward now. The alternative is a very long wait outside in the cold of politics.

Liberal democracy is about balancing needs. You have to identify needs and you have to understand how to balance them for liberal democracy to thrive. Failure to do the former means the latter fails.

And here we are.

2020 beckons.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New to all.

OP posts:
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howabout · 31/12/2019 14:37

Listening I agree that spending pledges in the public sector have to be looked at in the broader context. However it is cheaper to give eg a classroom assistant or care worker a 6% payrise than a teacher or doctor a 3% payrise. I rarely hear the concern about "affordability" when it is the latter.

howabout · 31/12/2019 14:47

Re Scotland, yes the funding is different but the block grant is directly related to spending decisions on education and NHS etc made on English provision via the Barnett formula.

Songsofexperience · 31/12/2019 15:47

and a deluded old fool sitting opposite him.

Deluded? Or did exactly what some people expected of him? I can't shake the feeling that no one is that stupid or deluded.
The outcome of the leadership contest will speak volume I think.

ListeningQuietly · 31/12/2019 15:56

Songs
Oh, Corbyn is definitely a Tory mole. He was the last line of attack in a plot hatched in the 70's. He's done his job better than they could have dreamed. GrinWinkSmile

PawFives · 31/12/2019 16:27

That’s true @howabout but I was thinking more about how the narrative became the cause was Labour’s spending rather than lax regulation (which the Tories went along with).

CrissmussMockers · 31/12/2019 16:35

Corbyn is a mle, but not for the Tories, even if he might as well be.

He doesn't want to stay on, but is doing so out of 'loyalty.' That loyalty that comes before everything else is not to the party but to his gang, the Pro-Cuban, Pro-Hamas America & Israel hating revolutionary Marxists and sundry other onanist tendancies clustered around the Stop The War Coalition, who these days mainly support wars so long as they are backed by Russia and/or Iran.

Tanith · 31/12/2019 17:00

“ whoever the Labour party elect now as leader , do they have to be the person who is the leader at the next election ?”

No. When the Conservatives were out of power, they had a succession of leaders. I think Michael Howard was one who never had to face what the electorate really thought of him Smile

I saw that Dan Jarvis is another who is thinking about his options over Christmas. Has he decided yet?

howabout · 31/12/2019 17:05

The Tories were equally keen on lax spending and regulation during the Blair years. Very difficult to make the case for fiscal conservatism in the face of a credit led boom and not generally a vote winner.

DGRossetti · 31/12/2019 17:23

Now the Tories have the keys to the vault, they'll be happily claiming they are "spending" money on all sort of things, when the reality will be a good whack goes into private companies for shareholders and bonuses a la Carillion.

ListeningQuietly · 31/12/2019 17:29

And in other news !!!!
www.radicalcompliance.com/2019/12/27/poland-chief-auditor-brothel-scandal/

howabout · 31/12/2019 17:29

Don't disagree with that DGR but again no different to what Labour did under Blair.

Tempted to point out if Clegg had not been there as the voice of "sound housekeeping" no-one would ever have suggested Austerity. In that regard Swinson was at least consistent.

CrissmussMockers · 31/12/2019 17:30

When Gordon Brown was deregulating the City like there was no tomorrow, (and for him, there wasn't) the only complaint from his shadow the Boy Gideon was that he wasn't deregulating it nearly enough.

BJ has been dealt a dream hand. He would need to seriously FUBAR the country to lose his majority, and even then he can do a deal with the Fibs.

derxa · 31/12/2019 17:33

Richard Burgon for deputy leader?

sunglasses123 · 31/12/2019 17:34

Listening to Corbyn et al over the last few days. They still seem clueless as to why they lost. It cannot have been anything that THEY did. It must be others (or Brexit). Next election will be different etc etc etc

It wont if they carry on like this. They will end up chosing a Corbyn clone with the same daft ideas and idelogies. I heard Alan Johnson tear into Jon Lansman from Momentum who just sat there saying at least they won Putney!!

Corbyn is a complete nightmare and has wrecked the Labour Party maybe forever and there seems to be no end in sight. The UK need a strong opposition yet they have these fools.

Still isnt Spitting Image coming back? They will have a field day with the characters in politics these days!

BigChocFrenzy · 31/12/2019 18:30

Labour haven't been in govt for 10 years

The Tories have had plenty of time to tighten up financial regulations and increase public investment if the inte nded to do so,
However, previous Tory govts when in office have done the opposite
and the Tory Brexiter mantra has been for a "Bonfire of Red Tape"

Still, the Tory party has previously opposed Labour raising the NMW, so maybe now they have started copying some old Labour policies

I agree with listening that there are millions of people on NMW, so public spending needs to be increased just to avoid job cuts

Also, we must see how many NMW jobs are cut by businesses - previous NMW introduction & rises hasn't caused many job losses, but there were some, concentrated among micro & small businesses iirc

BigChocFrenzy · 31/12/2019 18:35

Increasing public spending while cutting taxes as promised would mean increasing govt borrowing,

There are no signs that economic growth can finance the extra, since 70 billion in GDP has already been lost from what was on course for the economy before the referendum,

BigChocFrenzy · 31/12/2019 18:35

The misery of all those years of austerity was clearly pointless

malylis · 31/12/2019 18:48

Brown did very little deregulation, the big deregulation of the city happened in the big bang of the 80s.

ListeningQuietly · 31/12/2019 19:08

The Tories win elections because they play on people's selfishness and aspiration

Labour lose elections because they tell voters that they need to be helped (effectively labelling them inadequate)

ListeningQuietly · 31/12/2019 19:11

Brown did very little deregulation, the big deregulation of the city happened in the big bang of the 80s.
No.
Brown was a huge fan of lighter touch and self regulation
in the City, in audit in business
raising audit thresholds, reducing the funding and remit of regulators
and of course the first Academy schools
and independent NHS Trusts

sunglasses123 · 31/12/2019 19:15

Listening - that is far too trite....

This last election Labour literally lost the plot, free everything (i.e bribes!) to anyone they can think of. Hating the wealth creators and threatening to tax them into infinity (stupid twits - they wont be hanging around!).

It was an experiment that went horribly wrong for them and they deserve to implode into themselves over the coming years unless they have a massive change of direction and policies.

DGRossetti · 31/12/2019 19:20

Increasing public spending while cutting taxes as promised would mean increasing govt borrowing,

So fill your boots now and just leave the bill for the next generation.

AKA "Business as usual".

malylis · 31/12/2019 19:24

But Brown didn't deregulate in anyway like the Tories did in the 80s (in the end it was this that caused the crash).

The first academy schools were very different to the current ones (but a DofE policy not treasury).

malylis · 31/12/2019 19:26

Lots if hyperbolic nonsense about Labour here too.

Oh and wealth creators don't exist, talking about them in these terms are akin to talking about creationism.

ListeningQuietly · 31/12/2019 19:28

sunglasses
Yup, its facile
but then why DID the left behind workers vote Tory MPs in ?

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