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Brexit

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism

951 replies

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2019 16:11

The post election autopsy is starting to show something up. Finally. Brexit is part of wider political issues and fractures. This isn't exactly rocket science but it's an inconvenient truth that has been ignored.

We have something of a conflict going on between economic conservatism and social conservatism.

The Tories as the party of business were economically conservative and put this ahead of other issues. "It's the economy stupid."

But as this has continued this has opened up social division and the gap between rich and poor has laid bare social issues.

This is where Labour and the LDs are now becoming something of a cropper. In Brexit they continued the idea that the economy was the most important this and in doing so has fuelled the idea that they don't care about social issues. They are perceived to be putting the interests of businesses as more important than those people.

Of course it's not as straightforward as this. To fund ways to stop social issues you need good economics.

Add to this the progressive movement which has become authoritarian and has lost sight of certain social issues in favour of identity politics and you start to have a real issue. One that the EU as an identity has become caught up in in this country. The wedge to drive in the cracks.

Issues haven't been tackled because identity is more important and was prioritised. And we've had scandals arising out of this.

Instead we've had the increasing demonisation of social conservativism and the idea that if you question certain things you are backward or bigoted as a means to silence people. And now we've had a massive backlash against that generalisation and lack of nuance. And not seeing what was happening and having a self awareness of how this read to more socially conservative types.

That's not to say there aren't massive issues in social conservatism which can be indeed racist, homophobic, sexist and yes very bigoted in nature. The trouble is that the failure to be able to tackle nuance which identity politics forced and a failure to understand that the pace of change needs to be set by public consensus rather than top down authoritarianism has lead us to where we are now.

Rights set up to protect certain groups have failed in practice even if they exist in law. And those who professed to stand for the interests of certain groups forgot the origins of rights.

Thus undermining the entire centre left project, which in some respects the EU embodies.

We now find ourselves in a divided and ruled scenario where those who should have benefitted most from rights can be exploited by an elite who have successfully seen an opportunity to step into the void that identity politics created.

And now the left and liberals have to wake up to this reality and come up with a solution to it.

There is a lot of uncomfortable and difficult decisions to be made here.

The solution to the culture war isn't to push back harder and to become more authoritarian in tone about the right of 'right and wrong'.

It's to address why identity politics caused the left and liberals to forget their origins and purpose and why they established certain ideals in the first place.

Meanwhile whilst they figure out just how they lost their way and were blinkered by their own self righteousness, everything that the centre left project established will be gradually unpicked. Or if Johnson can do it, without being challenged, at some considerable pace.

It comes down to remembering your roots and having a solid connection with the reality of people's lives rather than high minded idealism and a sense of superiority. This is what people saw regardless of the noble intent of Labour and the Lib Dems.

'Social conservatism' were dirty words. Now they are the reality of the present. Whether we like it or not.

Economic stability has become secondary to this desire for social conservatism.

Labour and the Lib Dems have to adapt to this and will have to offer something to those with more socially conservative views to move forward now. The alternative is a very long wait outside in the cold of politics.

Liberal democracy is about balancing needs. You have to identify needs and you have to understand how to balance them for liberal democracy to thrive. Failure to do the former means the latter fails.

And here we are.

2020 beckons.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New to all.

OP posts:
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XingMing · 23/12/2019 22:31

I've lived megapolis and village life, and enjoyed both. In two cities as diverse as the UN, in a Buddhist society, in Arabia and in the capitalist West.

In my very very humble experience, the capitalist west gives more people more chance at a decent quality of life than any alternative that I have seen. If you are prepared to work, and do not have a disabling condition, you should work for yourself, your family and to pay taxes. If you are so disabled you can't work, then I believe your safety net is better in the UK/Europe than most places. Is that such an unreasonable thought?

yolofish · 23/12/2019 22:32

cute kitty listeningquietly!

I do hope my post doesnt get deleted, I am of the opinion that when people post shit they should stand by it or be called out on it.

chomalungma · 23/12/2019 22:33

Is that such an unreasonable thought

What's that got to do with anything - and especially your recent posts?

ListeningQuietly · 23/12/2019 22:34

My butcher is more expensive than the supermarkets for some things
much cheaper on others
but infinitely better quality
so worth the money
buy less, buy better

JustAnotherPoster00 · 23/12/2019 22:38

I've lived megapolis and village life, and enjoyed both. In two cities as diverse as the UN, in a Buddhist society, in Arabia and in the capitalist West.

Were you as equally out of touch there as you are here?

JustAnotherPoster00 · 23/12/2019 22:40

buy less, buy better

Some of us have no choice unless meat becomes a yearly treat for those of us in the underclass

XingMing · 23/12/2019 22:43

Those who lack a butcher in their town probably never realised that several days a week you need to eat offal (kidneys and liver) instead of chops, steaks and roasts. They cook just as fast and are equally delicious (cooked properly) as the more expensive bits, which are the only bits sold in supermarkets. The bits the supermarkets can't sell, to people who can't cook, go to be made into pet food.

PeninsulaPanic · 23/12/2019 22:47

Were you as equally out of touch there as you are here?

I think I love you! Wink

XingMing · 23/12/2019 22:48

Just, I actually pass as normal.

chatongris · 23/12/2019 22:51

Because it's "normal" to suggest that disabled people are not sentient? Not where I come from.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 23/12/2019 22:53

I believe you think you pass as normal, I also believe that a lot of your ideas fell out of favour in the latter parts of the 70’s and will happily be corrected if one of your beliefs is that people spend to much on convenience goods and that’s why they can’t get a house oh and also you can poor people are poor because of their choices and that it has nothing to do with government policy

XingMing · 23/12/2019 22:54

What, me, or the other party?

I lived in a seriously dodgy part of a very dangerous poor city with a massive crime problem for five years. The holier than thou lecture is not necessary. And no, it hasn't taught me that poverty makes virtue, rather the reverse.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 23/12/2019 22:54

An errant can was added to previous post Grin

JustAnotherPoster00 · 23/12/2019 22:57

So never made the link between poverty and crime then?

XingMing · 23/12/2019 22:59

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Quotes deleted post

PeninsulaPanic · 23/12/2019 22:59

You sound like the type who thinks slumming it and getting down with the poor makes you virtuous... abroad.

But back here, you feel secure enough not to waste your energy on virtue signalling, I'm guessing. Except when you're showing off about how well-travelled you are. Pity it didn't broaden your mind.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 23/12/2019 23:01

ShockBiscuit wtaf did I just read

XingMing · 23/12/2019 23:01

Just, I knew people who did crime and people who tried to live peacefully in equal measures, but a great many more who would have liked the opportunity to save enough to move elsewhere.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 23/12/2019 23:03

That was directed to the boomer above and not peninsula

PeninsulaPanic · 23/12/2019 23:04

Yep Just, you weren't seeing things. Ming just basically said people with a social conscience are as good as disabled. Disabled meaning stupid, not right in the head, etc Confused

JustAnotherPoster00 · 23/12/2019 23:05

Your confirmation bias preconceived belief anecdata hold no sway or authority here

XingMing · 23/12/2019 23:09

Not quite, Peninsula; my social conscience is healthy, but skeptical (as I am an ancient boomer of 64). I hope you grow old healthily, and that you have the opportunity to re-read what you post in 40 years time. I really want to be patronising, so I will be. You'll grow out of it.

PeninsulaPanic · 23/12/2019 23:12

@XingMing On the other hand, there's no hope for you Biscuit

JustAnotherPoster00 · 23/12/2019 23:12

Xing ODFOD

XingMing · 23/12/2019 23:13

To the other side of DFOD...

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