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Brexit

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism

951 replies

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2019 16:11

The post election autopsy is starting to show something up. Finally. Brexit is part of wider political issues and fractures. This isn't exactly rocket science but it's an inconvenient truth that has been ignored.

We have something of a conflict going on between economic conservatism and social conservatism.

The Tories as the party of business were economically conservative and put this ahead of other issues. "It's the economy stupid."

But as this has continued this has opened up social division and the gap between rich and poor has laid bare social issues.

This is where Labour and the LDs are now becoming something of a cropper. In Brexit they continued the idea that the economy was the most important this and in doing so has fuelled the idea that they don't care about social issues. They are perceived to be putting the interests of businesses as more important than those people.

Of course it's not as straightforward as this. To fund ways to stop social issues you need good economics.

Add to this the progressive movement which has become authoritarian and has lost sight of certain social issues in favour of identity politics and you start to have a real issue. One that the EU as an identity has become caught up in in this country. The wedge to drive in the cracks.

Issues haven't been tackled because identity is more important and was prioritised. And we've had scandals arising out of this.

Instead we've had the increasing demonisation of social conservativism and the idea that if you question certain things you are backward or bigoted as a means to silence people. And now we've had a massive backlash against that generalisation and lack of nuance. And not seeing what was happening and having a self awareness of how this read to more socially conservative types.

That's not to say there aren't massive issues in social conservatism which can be indeed racist, homophobic, sexist and yes very bigoted in nature. The trouble is that the failure to be able to tackle nuance which identity politics forced and a failure to understand that the pace of change needs to be set by public consensus rather than top down authoritarianism has lead us to where we are now.

Rights set up to protect certain groups have failed in practice even if they exist in law. And those who professed to stand for the interests of certain groups forgot the origins of rights.

Thus undermining the entire centre left project, which in some respects the EU embodies.

We now find ourselves in a divided and ruled scenario where those who should have benefitted most from rights can be exploited by an elite who have successfully seen an opportunity to step into the void that identity politics created.

And now the left and liberals have to wake up to this reality and come up with a solution to it.

There is a lot of uncomfortable and difficult decisions to be made here.

The solution to the culture war isn't to push back harder and to become more authoritarian in tone about the right of 'right and wrong'.

It's to address why identity politics caused the left and liberals to forget their origins and purpose and why they established certain ideals in the first place.

Meanwhile whilst they figure out just how they lost their way and were blinkered by their own self righteousness, everything that the centre left project established will be gradually unpicked. Or if Johnson can do it, without being challenged, at some considerable pace.

It comes down to remembering your roots and having a solid connection with the reality of people's lives rather than high minded idealism and a sense of superiority. This is what people saw regardless of the noble intent of Labour and the Lib Dems.

'Social conservatism' were dirty words. Now they are the reality of the present. Whether we like it or not.

Economic stability has become secondary to this desire for social conservatism.

Labour and the Lib Dems have to adapt to this and will have to offer something to those with more socially conservative views to move forward now. The alternative is a very long wait outside in the cold of politics.

Liberal democracy is about balancing needs. You have to identify needs and you have to understand how to balance them for liberal democracy to thrive. Failure to do the former means the latter fails.

And here we are.

2020 beckons.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New to all.

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chatongris · 23/12/2019 21:39

If you're not worried about having a PM who says racist things then perhaps it's because you share his opinions.

Murray is the man who wrote that "Conditions for Muslims in Europe must be made harder across the board" (and much much more).

This was at the time too much even for the Conservative party, and they severed relations with him (see this Conservative Home piece: www.conservativehome.com/platform/2011/10/by-paul-goodman-the-struggle-against-islamist-extremism-demands-from-the-start-the-separation-of-islam-a-complex-religion.html).

XingMing · 23/12/2019 21:43

Please, don't descend to resuscitating tired old tropes. Boris is a hack, so letterboxes came in an OP ED column supporting Muslim women's right to wear the burqa.

Americans are not forced to buy chlorinated chicken: I managed to avoid it for the five years I lived there, by buying meat in local butchers, from local farms. Anyone who relies on buying supermarket meat is propping up an industrial farming industry I'd prefer to swerve, in the UK, EU (just as guilty) or the US. For the poorest people in society, the same choices may not be available... I do understand that, but in 5000 -10,000 years of "society" no one has eradicated poverty altogether.

Tanith · 23/12/2019 21:48

I agree with chomalungma. I also think the attack on London Bridge did a great deal to increase fear of Islamist extremism. This enabled the Conservatives to ignore complaints about Islamophobia from Muslim communities.

pointythings · 23/12/2019 21:53

Anyone who relies on buying supermarket meat is propping up an industrial farming industry I'd prefer to swerve

And that is all very well if 1) food labelling is adequate in terms of origin, 2) you have access to a farm shop near you in terms of affordable transport availability and 3) you are able to afford higher cost food for your family.

Lots of people in the UK are on the bones of their arse financially even though they are working. Your blinkers are showing, Xing.

chomalungma · 23/12/2019 21:54

Please, don't descend to resuscitating tired old tropes

It's very very easy for people to dismiss such concerns when they aren't a member of the groups that 'woke' people stand up for.

It's also incredibly ironic how people who complain about 'wokeness' and 'PC gone mad' are the first to complain when something happens that offends them. They are usually the ones with the power and the privilege to get the columns in the papers and the media to talk about it.

ListeningQuietly · 23/12/2019 21:57

New cat says hello

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism
XingMing · 23/12/2019 21:57

Do you not think that many Muslims chose to come and live in the UK because of its tolerant live and let live attitude? People are really not told how to live in the UK; find a path that suits you and let others get on with their route forward.

Please don't arrive here planning to import another culture; that's what you wanted to leave behind, I thought. Or why did you join/want to live in such a decadent environment?

chatongris · 23/12/2019 21:59

Boris is a hack

Boris is a hack who has made a career out of peddling racism to racists and lies to the gullible.

XingMing · 23/12/2019 22:00

The cost of meat in my local butcher is cheaper, for most cuts, than Tesco.

chomalungma · 23/12/2019 22:03

Do you not think that many Muslims chose to come and live in the UK because of its tolerant live and let live attitude

We do have a tolerant live and let live attitude. There seems to be less tolerance around at the moment, after what's been a lot of positive changes.

I hope we don't lose that tolerance. I also think that tolerance varies very much depending on what part of the UK you live in.

chomalungma · 23/12/2019 22:04

Please don't arrive here planning to import another culture; that's what you wanted to leave behind, I thought. Or why did you join/want to live in such a decadent environment

Who are you addressing that to?

Peregrina · 23/12/2019 22:06

Hmm -I have just heard that a local butcher priding himself of providing local high quality meat has retired. I don't think anyone took over the shop - so its gone.I can't immediately think where the nearest independent butcher is.

XingMing · 23/12/2019 22:08

Very sorry PoInty, on food safety and hygiene issues I do know where I stand. And I also live in one of the poorest regions of the UK. Please don't make assumptions about who I might be and what political views I might represent. I am probably older than you, may have seen more countries than you, and I do not buy your metropolitan elite views.

XingMing · 23/12/2019 22:10

Bad luck Peregrina. Very sorry to hear that.

chomalungma · 23/12/2019 22:11

Please don't make assumptions about who I might be and what political views I might represent. I am probably older than you, may have seen more countries than you, and I do not buy your metropolitan elite views

Can you see the irony in that statement?

XingMing · 23/12/2019 22:14

Interesting separation of my thoughts there. Do you want to live in an open tolerant society being thought one; in a separate post, referring to the same post of mine. Please don't try to import your views. It may be difficult for you to grasp, but you cannot logically hold both views at once, if if it suits your argument to do so.

QueenOfThorns · 23/12/2019 22:14

I wish our local butcher was cheaper than Tesco! I picked up all the Christmas meat this morning and it was ££££. Although apparently both Tesco and Asda are having issues with meat supplies today, so I’m glad I went to the butcher and it’s currently only once a year. It’ll be a lot more often for us if US meat is in the supermarkets, so I suppose that’ll at least benefit local shops.

chomalungma · 23/12/2019 22:18

o you want to live in an open tolerant society being thought one; in a separate post, referring to the same post of mine. Please don't try to import your views

What do you mean by 'import your views'?

I want to live in an open tolerant society. The UK is far more tolerant than it once was. But I fear there is a backlash against that tolerance brewing.

XingMing · 23/12/2019 22:19

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

yolofish · 23/12/2019 22:23

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

chatongris · 23/12/2019 22:24

Apparently 1 in 8 settled status applications are still outstanding and people who have lived in the U.K. and paid NI/tax for decades still getting turned down (fellow train travel fans will know who this is):

@seatsixtyone
Dutch Mrs 61 uses the EU Exit app & in spite of having paid NI & doing tax returns living here since 2003, being married to me since 2005 & having had two kids in Stoke Mandeville hospital - no Settled Status....

chatongris · 23/12/2019 22:25

Maybe we could manage without the disablist language. I've reported it and would encourage others to do so.

yolofish · 23/12/2019 22:26

that's why I c&p chatongris. Hoisting/own petard etc.

pointythings · 23/12/2019 22:28

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Quotes deleted post

pointythings · 23/12/2019 22:30

Thanks, chatongris, for the report.

I quoted it (because I am angry) but am fully on board with MNHQ deleting that post because of said quote. Grotesque disablist post.

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