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Brexit

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism

951 replies

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2019 16:11

The post election autopsy is starting to show something up. Finally. Brexit is part of wider political issues and fractures. This isn't exactly rocket science but it's an inconvenient truth that has been ignored.

We have something of a conflict going on between economic conservatism and social conservatism.

The Tories as the party of business were economically conservative and put this ahead of other issues. "It's the economy stupid."

But as this has continued this has opened up social division and the gap between rich and poor has laid bare social issues.

This is where Labour and the LDs are now becoming something of a cropper. In Brexit they continued the idea that the economy was the most important this and in doing so has fuelled the idea that they don't care about social issues. They are perceived to be putting the interests of businesses as more important than those people.

Of course it's not as straightforward as this. To fund ways to stop social issues you need good economics.

Add to this the progressive movement which has become authoritarian and has lost sight of certain social issues in favour of identity politics and you start to have a real issue. One that the EU as an identity has become caught up in in this country. The wedge to drive in the cracks.

Issues haven't been tackled because identity is more important and was prioritised. And we've had scandals arising out of this.

Instead we've had the increasing demonisation of social conservativism and the idea that if you question certain things you are backward or bigoted as a means to silence people. And now we've had a massive backlash against that generalisation and lack of nuance. And not seeing what was happening and having a self awareness of how this read to more socially conservative types.

That's not to say there aren't massive issues in social conservatism which can be indeed racist, homophobic, sexist and yes very bigoted in nature. The trouble is that the failure to be able to tackle nuance which identity politics forced and a failure to understand that the pace of change needs to be set by public consensus rather than top down authoritarianism has lead us to where we are now.

Rights set up to protect certain groups have failed in practice even if they exist in law. And those who professed to stand for the interests of certain groups forgot the origins of rights.

Thus undermining the entire centre left project, which in some respects the EU embodies.

We now find ourselves in a divided and ruled scenario where those who should have benefitted most from rights can be exploited by an elite who have successfully seen an opportunity to step into the void that identity politics created.

And now the left and liberals have to wake up to this reality and come up with a solution to it.

There is a lot of uncomfortable and difficult decisions to be made here.

The solution to the culture war isn't to push back harder and to become more authoritarian in tone about the right of 'right and wrong'.

It's to address why identity politics caused the left and liberals to forget their origins and purpose and why they established certain ideals in the first place.

Meanwhile whilst they figure out just how they lost their way and were blinkered by their own self righteousness, everything that the centre left project established will be gradually unpicked. Or if Johnson can do it, without being challenged, at some considerable pace.

It comes down to remembering your roots and having a solid connection with the reality of people's lives rather than high minded idealism and a sense of superiority. This is what people saw regardless of the noble intent of Labour and the Lib Dems.

'Social conservatism' were dirty words. Now they are the reality of the present. Whether we like it or not.

Economic stability has become secondary to this desire for social conservatism.

Labour and the Lib Dems have to adapt to this and will have to offer something to those with more socially conservative views to move forward now. The alternative is a very long wait outside in the cold of politics.

Liberal democracy is about balancing needs. You have to identify needs and you have to understand how to balance them for liberal democracy to thrive. Failure to do the former means the latter fails.

And here we are.

2020 beckons.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New to all.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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PeninsulaPanic · 23/12/2019 23:16

No, just back to the Brexit Arms will do

tobee · 23/12/2019 23:18

Torn between laughing in the face and utter disgust! Shock

ChrismArseDarkly · 23/12/2019 23:24

Never takes long to show themselves for what they are..

XingMing · 23/12/2019 23:27

The smug world view needs puncturing, on both sides of the argument, if there is ever going to be an agreed way forward. As far as I can see, it's not coming from Momentum or even the Labour party.

XingMing · 23/12/2019 23:29

Love disagreeing with you too Arse. Happy Christmas, if that's not too temperate.

Lucygoeswalkies · 23/12/2019 23:45

Dusty - you mentioned ‘provocative’ about the ringing of Big Ben. Yes, absolutely.

Listening beautiful cat! Looks part Burmese?

thecatfromjapan · 23/12/2019 23:50

chatongris I found the Cologne stuff on the feminism boards very odd - and very alienating.

ChrismArseDarkly · 23/12/2019 23:53

Yes Happy Christmas to you'XingMing' and all the inmates at the Brexit Arms - cheers! Wine

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism
Dusty01 · 24/12/2019 00:02

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Quotes deleted post

AutumnRose1 · 24/12/2019 00:46

People mentioning Cologne on the feminist boards- what was alarming? I remember it wasn’t covered much by mainstream media.

I am actually going to bed now so not ignoring any replies btw.

7Days · 24/12/2019 00:52

I dunno, thecatfromjapan. I vaguely remember those threads. Certainly not the details. But at the time I was in agreement that the conversation needed to happen. This happened, and it was another case of womens concerns being swept under the carpet to the advantage of another group. Obviously feminists would be all over that.
You could say there are similar conversations going on in the wake of MeToo and Epstein. But there isn't the political edge there that there was in Germany re predominately Muslim refugees.
The same conversation went on about Catholic priests when their abuses came to light.
Jimmy Savile and institutional complicity.
Women dying after 'rough sex' and men walking free.
Top league sportsmen.
Rotherham.

It's certainly not confined to any one demographic but there are dynamics at play in how they source their victims, the 'self-justification' of the perpetrators, who is involved in the - common to all - minimising and cover-ups.

chatongris · 24/12/2019 05:53

It's possible to have a discussion about issues with large scale migration without adopting far right tropes. The Cologne threads were full of far right propaganda and half truths/untruths spread by people who did perhaps have a genuine concern about women and girls, but who also had a massive problem with Muslims.

In much the same way that the trans threads are now peopled by individuals whose concern for women and girls is used to mask a really unhealthy obsession with trans and often with gay people.

It took me a while to see it, but both migration and the trans issue are being used by the same people for the same purposes.

I can't be bothered to check because I'm awake in the middle of the night with shoulder tendinitis and I'm tired, but I'd be prepared to bet that the demise of the Cologne threads coincided almost exactly with the rise of the trans threads. It's reds under the beds stuff by people with a profound psychological need for a bogeyman.

lonelyplanetmum · 24/12/2019 06:26

Hmmm don't think that 200 billion figure made it onto the side of a bus.

"About one-quarter of U.K. financial services’ 200 billion pounds of yearly revenue comes from EU-related business, according to government reports. So there’s a vast amount at stake here." ( I'll say.)

Still seems crazy that we're trying to decide on the best path three years down the road. But we are where we are I guess. We will get to know the path eventually..

www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-12-23/the-city-of-london-starts-to-crack-over-brexit

thecatfromjapan · 24/12/2019 06:48

Yes. I think chatongris has expressed exactly how I felt about the discussions around Cologne.

There's more I'd say but I said it, on the boards, at the time - and the replies I received ended up in my leaving them.

thecatfromjapan · 24/12/2019 06:50

It's fascinating, really, lonelyplanetmum.

We are going to have two, related, paths to watch now: the slowly unfurling damage of Brexit and the related damage of a Far Right government dismantling the inhibitory factors of the UK's social and political structures.

borntobequiet · 24/12/2019 07:09

Interesting evening - just catching up now. As someone whose teens and twenties were in the 70s, and whose experience then was unusually wide, my feeling is that the misogyny and racism evident today is far more toxic than it was then. In those days it was knee-jerk, and in fact most people (IME) were neither misogynist nor racist. Now it’s visceral and deliberately whipped up by those who want to exploit it (and yes I remember Enoch Powell, but in fact his pronouncements
were considered shocking by most people).

chatongris · 24/12/2019 07:14

Cat, it's with the benefit of hindsight that some of this is starting to become clear.

Good article on the Cologne assaults here - makes the point that CCTV found very little evidence for assaults by migrants, and that perpetrators are just as likely if not more likely to be white. A female TV journalist reporting from Cologne's annual festival was assaulted while on air by white men.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/cologne-sex-assaults-muslim-rape-myths-fit-a-neo-nazi-agenda-a6872566.html

In the same way, genuine concerns about trans issues (in particular, medical ethics and protection of the most vulnerable groups of women) have been hijacked and are being used to distract from wider issues of male violence and right wing misogyny.

Motheroffourdragons · 24/12/2019 07:28

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

chatongris · 24/12/2019 07:34

Also, with reference to last night's deleted comments (I've also reported the follow up comment from the same person, who literally has no idea why it's offensive to suggest that people who disagree with you have SEN) there is a long history of anti-disabled propaganda from the same people who spread racist material.

A good example is the fine upstanding new MP for Hastings, who suggested that disabled people don't understand money and who also has a history of antisemitic and islamophobic posts on social media.

She won't be reprimanded because these three strands of opinion (the "great replacement" by Muslims; the notion that Jews led by Soros control academia and finance; and neonazi notions about disability) are all very mainstream now.

RedToothBrush · 24/12/2019 07:48

We are in a time of information warfare.

My lecturer was talking about it in the early 1990s. Yet it wasn't ever thought of as a potential threat. Nor was the social impact of the internet. Indeed when I was studying, we were asked about whether we thought there would be socialital revolution as the result of technology changes. The consensus was that there wouldn't be because the technology wouldn't be sophisticated enough nor would enough people have it. I personally disagreed with this as I knew what was happening directly in my life with the Internet at the time. I was one of the first people connecting with others with like minded interests and meeting up in person. There was an enormous lack of understanding and foresight going on. And I certainly think that politicians and planner dropped the ball with it.

When it comes to issues like Cologne and trans issues they fall at fracture points in identity politics. This is a problem because people have started to see identities rather than problems and this has been exploited by information warfare. People see an identity rather then looking at how an issue is affecting society as a whole. It undermines social cohesion in this manner.

And I don't think it's something that comes purely from the far right for that reason.

It comes from extremes of all kinds and its moderates who are unable to get their voices heard amongst all the shouting.

Identity politics is the very thing that has fuelled polarisation of opinions and put people in opposing camps. And forced moderates into a position of having to choose the least worst option.

To a degree when faced with this there is perhaps an inevitably that when faced with social change and instability people, particularly older people, are leaning back towards social conservatism. It feels a place where they were secure.

The reality is that place wasn't safe for many and the rose tint spectacles don't reflect the reality of the past.

And the present is full of people unwilling to step back and look at a situation because politics have become so emotionally charged because of the personal investment and involvement that identity politics creates.

I don't know what the solution is. It will unravel. The problem is the whole thing plays to the strengths of the right and the weaknesses of the left. And the longer it takes for people to work this out the more rights will be unpicked.

OP posts:
OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 24/12/2019 07:50

Been busy the last few days so only dipping in and out. Wish I hadn't after seeing last nights comments by some.

chaton I've also noticed similar patterns across certain threads over the years.

Piggywaspushed · 24/12/2019 07:58

Haven't PMKd yet on this thread as didn't want to engage in/read identity politics stuff but got sucked back in. My word , the visitors keep coming and coming to jab and sneer and insult , hey?

Piggywaspushed · 24/12/2019 07:59

chaton, I agree wholeheartedly with your post.

Stinkyeddie · 24/12/2019 08:12

Let them.

They show theor true colours pretty quickly...

Merry Christmas all 🎄

Thinking of squid especially at the moment x

chatongris · 24/12/2019 08:16

chaton I've also noticed similar patterns across certain threads over the years.

Well, I'm well behind the curve Grin but the sight of a white men's rights activist who hates Muslims being fawned over by "feminists" was quite the wake up call.

Swipe left for the next trending thread