Westminstenders: The only way forward is up.

[placemats]

A new thread as the other one is getting full. I'm enjoying the post election discussion. Every view is listened to and welcomed.

Brexit is happening, but what kind of Brexit will it be?

New leaderships for both Labour and the LibDems.

Most importantly, will Britain be Great in 2024?

It still does not make it quite such a surprise and such a remarkable thing that eh went to uni. DH was at Leeds. It was, indeed, always full of students from all areas of the UK.

I appreciate that going to university at all sets Starmer apart from almost everyone else brought up in similar circumstances at that time, given the organisation of higher ed in the UK then. Never mind getting a first and going on to be DPP.

I'm curious as to whether now, in 2019, that makes him an impressively clever and hard-working person or a remote elitist figure with "the wrong accent".
Or both at the same time, which is perfectly possible.

Scumbag Poly in the 80s, me. Very downmarket. A conscious choice on my part. All that dreaming spires Brideshead Crap made me puke.

(The Young Ones was not a situation comedy. It was a fly-on-the-wall documentary: "We never clean the toilet, Vivian. That's what being a student is all about!!!")

You dressed like you lived in a soggy cardboard box. It was Thatcher's Britian and we wanted everyone to know we were suffering.

I sometmes got the bus up to the 'other place,' all modernist 60s architecture. They filmed bits of the History Man there. It was another world, full of fashion victims in giant brothel creepers and big-peak caps like her in the Thompson Twins. Different class.

Thank goodness you don't need to have gone to a grammar school to get into RG Unis now and grade inflation being reduced by the new very hard A levels bought in two years ago.

I'm curious as to whether now, in 2019, that makes him an impressively clever and hard-working person or a remote elitist figure with "the wrong accent".
Or both at the same time, which is perfectly possible.

Both. He's a human right lawyer which are the worst of the worst in terms of being perceived as Liberal elite.

But also hard working.

Depends whether you see the duck or the rabbit.

I applied 88 went 1990 so a bit younger than Starmer.

Trying to remember where Leeds was - Russell Group didn’t exist then.
The top unis after Oxbridge were Edinburgh, Durham, Bristol, York, Manchester, Imperial, LSE. I don’t recall Leeds being particularly academic or popular at that point.

But it’s not true that unis in general were private school dominated. There aren’t sufficient private schools for that to be the case.

I'm curious as to whether now, in 2019, that makes him an impressively clever and hard-working person or a remote elitist figure with "the wrong accent".

From my 1960s boomer perspective, it makes him clever and hard-working with a commitment to public service, as he would also presumably have been capable of working in the private sector and earning a lot more.

He doesn't come over as elitist and also if you watch him he doesn't have the same mannerisms or dress code as the Eton/Oxford educated elites of the same generation.

Side note: I temped at the CPS briefly during a short period of unemployment in the late 1980s, it was run on a shoestring even then.

As the season of Goodwill to all approaches Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays to one and all ( whichever is less offensive😀) and a Happy New Year too! ( Until everyone realised how much they have been lied to by Boris)☃️☃️

There used to be the Nice-But-Dim Triangle: Bristol, Bath and Exeter, all full of posh kids too thick for Oxbridge.

All those mentioned Tatiana are all RG Unis now.

Sir Keir Starmer would have no credibility with call centre workers in the north east on minimum wage He doesn't need to do this. He could be calm and measured in front of BJ.

There are only a certain number of places at Oxbridge. Not being accepted at Oxbridge does not mean you are too 'thick' for Oxbridge. 🤔

There are only a certain number of places at Oxbridge. Not being accepted at Oxbridge does not mean you are too 'thick' for Oxbridge

Quite there are many more Oxbridge standard students than there are places. And it’s not everyone’s cup of tea anyway.

There are only a certain number of places at Oxbridge. Not being accepted at Oxbridge does not mean you are too 'thick' for Oxbridge.

No it means that statistically you probably just went to state not private school and didn't come across as entitled enough at the entrance interview

But it’s not true that unis in general were private school dominated. There aren’t sufficient private schools for that to be the case.

Not in general but the top universities, certainly. The parliament website tells me that when Starmer left school only about 10% of students got 3 A-levels and only about 70k undergraduate degrees were awarded per year. About 7% of students were in private school at the time.

A-level results and university degree numbers increased steeply in the late 1980s but Starmer must just predate this.

In the 1980s it was still common for a working class student to be the first in their extended family to attend university - my DH is a little older than Starmer (went to uni in 1979) and he was the first person in his extended family ever to get A levels let alone a degree.

Bristol, Bath and Exeter has a private school bias (possibly still do) so they were seen as a cosy Oxbridge alternative for nice chaps and gals who weren’t quite there academically

had

No it means that statistically you probably just went to state not private school and didn't come across as entitled enough at the entrance interview

If you came across as entitled in the interview they would probably just think you were a twat. Many Oxbridge academics were educated in the state system themselves.

Anyway, how long til psychopath Cummings and narcissist Johnson fall out? It's our only hope.

So,
Keir would make a great interim leader
but will the Corbynistas have the sense to let him do it ?

I went for interview at Oxford a few years later than this and was too thick to get in . I met one Michael Gove while there who had been ordered to show Scottish students around so that we didn't feel it wasn't for the likes of us. I am not sure he had that effect...

I have totally derailed this, sorry.
To me, Starmer doesn't come across as elitist or entitled and I was wondering whether he belonged to a generation where his trajectory would be seen as positive or whether, since things are now so very different, he might just be viewed as another privileged male.

As someone said earlier, the issue of accents is v different in England compared to Scotland and I think maybe the issue of what the French call "l'ascenseur social" (the opportunities a society allows for individuals to rise above their original social position through ability and hard work rather than wealth/connections) is also different.

I can see how HR law might be problematic, though that in itself is problematic...

In the early 1980s you had no hope of getting into Oxford unless you were prepared specifically by your school. My school had a reasonably good record of getting applicants places to read English at certain less popular colleges mainly because one teacher had been there and knew the expectations. I think at the time some colleges still had an entrance exam, but we were advised to apply to one of the ones that didn't.

I'm quite middle class (child of a teacher) but early 1980s Oxford was socially way out of my league.

And I am not sure about that assertion (back then ) Tatiana. Certainly my interviewers came across as entitled twats.

He doesn't need to do this. He could be calm and measured in front of BJ

He absolutely needs to do it if Labour’s going to get elected again. It’s a long game.