Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westminstenders: 10 day count down

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 03/12/2019 17:19

10 days to go...

... Wake me up when the shit show is over.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
37
prettybird · 06/12/2019 10:08

Now seems an appropriate time to post this....

Westminstenders: 10 day count down
BaloneyInMySlacks · 06/12/2019 10:09

I still think it will be a minority Tory/ hung Parliament.

How would a minority Tory government even be possible? Who are you thinking would support their leader's claim that he had the confidence of the house?

DGRossetti · 06/12/2019 10:11

Morning.

Westminstenders: 10 day count down
Greykitten · 06/12/2019 10:21

How would a minority Tory government even be possible? Who are you thinking would support their leader's claim that he had the confidence of the house?

If they were only a handful of votes short it might be possible.

Imagine for eg a situation in which the DUP and maybe one or two Tory independents hold the balance of power. They are not going to support a Corbyn government. I don't think formal confidence and supply will be offered, so the question in that situation is whether Johnson would compromise enough to get a queen's speech through with informal support from DUP/independents, whether you get a centre/left coalition with someone other than Corbyn as PM, or whether no one can form a govt and we have to do this all over again.

DGRossetti · 06/12/2019 10:22

Can't cite, sorry. But interesting all the same ...

A 2020 Scottish independence referendum – what if Westminster says No?

Regardless of the General Election result, Nicola Sturgeon will seek a Section 30 order before the end of the year. A section 30 order temporarily transfers the power over the constitution,

meaning that the result of a new referendum on Scottish independence would have legal status. Therefore, it would not be a Catalan style referendum, as it would be recognised by the

international community as a valid result – that is important.

Calling for a 2020 referendum puts the SNP in a better position to encourage independence supporting voters to vote for them, and steal independence supporting Labour voters. A clever move,

which on the one hand will push all hard-line supporters of the Union into the arms of the Conservatives, thus saving a few of their MPs in SNP/Tory marginal seats. On the other hand,

it will leave the unionist cause to defend an extreme unionist position of saying No to any independence referendum, despite the nation itself moving in favour of one.

The SNP message is nuanced, however. It is not based on a full-on clarion call of “let’s be independent”, but rather, on Scotland’s “right to choose”, which is more widely accepted and harder to argue against.

Can Nicola Sturgeon deliver a 2020 independence referendum as she is claiming? Well, the answer to that is maybe. It all depends on the result of the General Election and a potential legal challenge

should the new PM say no.
So who will be the next PM?

Currently, the polls suggest that the most likely GE result is a Conservative majority. The second most likely outcome would be a Conservative minority government, as it is now, but closer to a majority.

The third most likely outcome is a completely hung parliament. Beyond that, results, such as a Labour majority win, start to look unlikely without a massive tactical voting switch. Labour forming a Government

with the balance of power sitting with the SNP is more likely than a Labour win. However, there is still probably less than a 1 in 4 chance of this happening. So, we are most likely looking at Boris Johnson

becoming PM and the Conservatives saying no to indyref 2 – if so what are the Scottish First Minister’s options?

There are two big clues to this. Firstly, in the SNP manifesto which states: “In order to put a referendum beyond legal challenge, we will seek a transfer of power, such as a section 30 order under The Scotland Act”,

the keywords are “such as”. If the UK Government says no to a section 30, the SNP will seek alternative legal routes. Secondly, the FM stated last week that “the matter has “never been tested in court.”

We have already reached a point in UK politics where the UK Supreme Court had to overrule the prorogation of the Commons following the SNP’s Joanna Cherry’s (and others) legal action.

Therefore, a legal challenge to force the legal status of indyref2 is not unreasonable and would fit with the “such as a section 30 order” statement.

A legal challenge would rest on the status of Scotland as a nation, which was a member of a union of nations and therefore, has the right to decide its own future.

To state that Scotland does not have the right to self-determination, the UK Government would have to argue that Scotland is not a nation and that Scotland ceased to exist with the Act of Union.

This would be unacceptable to most Scots.

If the UK Government goes to court and loses, then Holyrood can hold a legal referendum that would be accepted by the international community. Even if Westminster refused to accept the result,

Holyrood would be able to action the result and become legally independent. On the other hand, if the UK Government were to win such a court case, it would also mean by default that England

ceased to exist with the Act of Union. If the question is “what would drive support for Scottish independence to 80% in both Scotland and England?”, then there is your answer.

The legal challenge, however, would not start in the UK Supreme Court, but Scotland’s highest court – The Court of Session. This is the court that ruled that the prorogation of Parliament was unlawful,

and by doing so, forced the UK Supreme Court to reopen parliament. That was a test case because the UK Supreme Court doesn’t outrank the Court of Session on Scots law.

Therefore, if an act is illegal under Scottish law, even if it were legal under English law, that act can’t apply to Scotland as appeals are held under Scots law.

If the Court of Session and the Supreme Court disagree it gets tricky. There is only one court that could possibly have any authority over such a constitutional issue, and that is the International Court

of Justice in the Hague. As part of the UN, it would first have to decide if Scotland is a member of the UN by virtue of being a nation-state – a member of a multi-nation state that was a UN member.

If it agrees Scotland is a nation, then it could hear the dispute. However, having agreed Scotland is a nation-state, it would then have to overrule the UK Supreme Court,

as Article 1 of the UN charter states that “every peoples have a right to self-determination”.
Now we would get The Claim of Right

The Claim of Right, an Act first passed by the old Parliament of Scotland in 1689 but updated and accepted by both Holyrood and Westminster in recent years. The

Claim of Right is a key document defining of UK and Scottish constitutional law. In layman’s terms, it states that Scotland remains a nation and the Scottish people retain their right to choose the best form

of government for themselves. On July 4th 2018, the SNP Westminster leader, Ian Blackford MP, used an opposition day motion to put the Claim of Right to a vote in Westminster.

Despite a colourful debate with complaints and interruptions, it was passed by the UK Government, without a division (unanimously). That Westminster vote was non-binding,

in that its status did not set a UK legally binding precedent.

So, it has to be tested in the Scottish Court of Session, which I would expect to confirm the claim, and then appealed to the UK Supreme Court, putting it in an impossible situation.

The UK Supreme Court does not have the power to remove Scotland’s nation status, only to rule on whether Scotland has already lost its nation status.

The UK Government would not be willing to make that case as it means England also ceases to exist as a nation.

So, essentially we see why Theresa May didn’t say she would say no to a Scottish independence referendum. She knew she couldn’t really, and cleverly said: “Now is not the time”.

They cannot defend saying no, but they can defend saying not yet. Boris Johnston just isn’t as clever as Theresa May and that’s a scary thought.
Ireland can hold a referendum every seven years.

However, there is a precedent here that limits the ability to eternally say not yet. The Scotland Act (that set up the Scottish parliament), does not mention referendums. It does state, however,

that any issue not clearly reserved is, by default, devolved to Holyrood. Therefore, the Scottish Government can hold a referendum, it is just its legal status that is up for grabs. In Ireland and Wales however,

the authority of their parliaments to hold referenda was specifically restricted, indicating the lack of any claim of right in existence for those nations.

However, the Good Friday agreement sets a precedent. It allows for Irish re-unification referenda once every seven years, if all the people of Ireland support one being held. Seven years is the precedent.

This is possibly why Labour has realised it is unwise to say no to a second referendum and are pressing the case that an SNP majority in the Scottish Elections in 2021 (seven years after 2014) would trigger a section 30 order.

Labour is aware that the Scottish Parliament’s voting system is designed to stop the SNP gaining a majority, a goal it has only once failed to achieve in the face of 3 SNP victories. Labour also hope that by winning GE 2019,

their policies in action will diminish support for Scottish independence. That would have to be tested, but the most likely outcome (barring disaster for the Tories or tactical voting on a previously unseen scale)

is that the Conservatives will form the next Government, say no to a referendum, and the Scottish and UK Governments will be heading to court.
Could common sense and democracy win?

Before all this legal chaos though maybe someone will see sense and let democracy win? If the Scottish Government has to go to court to prove the legality of a referendum then the UK Government

will also lose in the court of public opinion. Maybe Boris Johnson will start to fancy being the man who leads England to Independence? So 2020 is a definite maybe but there will be another

Scottish independence referendum in the term of this next parliament one way or another.

DGRossetti · 06/12/2019 10:26

Who was it who said I was painting Tories in cartoon colours ? (Well, I did. But a few called me out on it).

Westminstenders: 10 day count down
squid4 · 06/12/2019 10:28

Tories got nothing. Not time to despair yet.

Sorry this is off topic but I just finished night shifts and my patient survived!! The one I failed to sleep on thursday day worrying about... she was in complete heart block and crashing renal failure which is a terrible combination and I was trying to get her a pacemaker and emergency dialysis at 3am which is pretty impossible... anyway went home nearly in tears yesterday she looked so shocking and I know she was elderly but I just felt I had done so much, tried so hard... so thought she was going to die, but went back last night and checked on her first thing and she was having a cup of tea and chatting to her granddaughter! I was so happy!

(She also told us she was Not GOing to Vote as they were all "scoundrels" which normally these days I discuss a bit but I was so happy I just hugged her instead (people are sometimes surprised when their doctor hugs them but I do it anyway sometimes, I mean not if they don't want me to) (Also as she is 80 years old in a leave town 'not voting' is probably best I can hope for haha) I was just thrilled she was so feisty, she was basically comatose with lactic acidosis on wednesday night... man I really spent the whole night trying to save her life in desperate ways

Sorry that is off topic, I am always this delirious after nights

Cuppa :)

Icantreachthepretzels · 06/12/2019 10:30

Have you all seen that a 'senior conservative figure' has said that the public might not be interested in the BJ/AN interview - we've had enough of interviews apparently Hmm

So he isn't going to do it - and it's because we don't want him to do it. Not because he's a chicken shit tub of lard that thinks he's above scrutiny. So at least that's cleared up. It's all our fault - on with your days folks, and make sure you don't make any literary references that are beyond the understanding of your fellow British public.

Icantreachthepretzels · 06/12/2019 10:32

Good for you squid - you deserved a happy ending there, glad you got one (and the woman who survived of course) Flowers

Alsohuman · 06/12/2019 10:33

squid, you just made me cry. So pleased your hard work paid off for your patient. You’ve single handedly restored my faith in human nature.

squid4 · 06/12/2019 10:34

She was awesome. I love her.
Yeah they mainly just die on me... odds are a bit stacked usually

DGRossetti · 06/12/2019 10:36

Some domestic science revision...

Westminstenders: 10 day count down
JustAnotherPoster00 · 06/12/2019 10:38

Alex Wickham
@alexwickham
Johnson confirms he is rejecting Neil interview

Senior Con source: “The public are fed up with interviews that are all about the interviewer and endless interruptions. The format is tired and broken and needs to change if it is to start engaging and informing the public again.”

lonelyplanetmum · 06/12/2019 10:38

Squid 🦑 - you made a difference. A beacon of hope.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 06/12/2019 10:38

Ash Sarkar
@AyoCaesar
·
50m
CORBYN'S GOT UNREDACTED DOCUMENTS AGAIN
Ash Sarkar
@AyoCaesar
·
48m
"There will be customs declarations and regulatory checks" between Northern Ireland and Great Britain, plus the potential for tariffs between GB and NI.

The government's own confidential report has just exposed Boris Johnson's claim of no border down the Irish Sea to be a lie.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 06/12/2019 10:42

PoliticsHome
@politicshome
· 3h
Former Tory PM John Major to join election rally aimed at blocking Boris Johnson majority

politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/conservative-party/news/108402/former-tory-pm-john-major-join-election

squid4 · 06/12/2019 10:44

Tories are unravelling! Don't listen to the polls they are erroneously weighting
Keep going everyone

squid4 · 06/12/2019 10:44

The "frit" look is not a good one. Look at how mental everyone went when Corbyn delayed an election for a few weeks for perfectly sensible reasons.

PeninsulaPanic · 06/12/2019 10:51

@squid4 Star Brew Cake Flowers

and then take this Bear and catch up on some enormously well-earned sleep!

Icantreachthepretzels · 06/12/2019 10:52

CORBYN'S GOT UNREDACTED DOCUMENTS AGAIN

And I hope for his third and final trick he pulls out the unredacted Russian report.

But for anyone who thinks export papers to NI won't change their day to day life - and maybe it won't, if you don't export things to NI - just remember that this deal takes us from being one of the leading members of the world's most powerful trading bloc and turns us into the only country in the world that has to use export papers to trade within it's own territory.

And he argued his way to that all on his own. That wasn't what TM had in her deal.

And then vote to get the worst negotiator since time began out of office. Because if he gave away more than the EU were asking for and accepted a worse deal from them than the one they already considered closed - what the hell is he going to give away to Trump?

JustAnotherPoster00 · 06/12/2019 10:52

Green New Deal Now Blakeley
@graceblakeley
·
2m
This is utterly staggering - Johnson slips from talking about migration to talking about ‘people of colour’

News flash, immigrants can be white
Quote Tweet

Ally Fogg
@AllyFogg
· 15m
Holy shit

"...including controlling our immigration system for the first time in decades and that would be a good thing. I'm in favour of having people of colour coming to this country but I think it should have it democratically controlled." twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1202894829090492416
Show this thread

squid4 · 06/12/2019 10:55

OOOH UNREDACTED DOCUMENTS

Yeah I know I'm delirious

Where's the russian report!! Someone man up and give it to your country!

Ellie56 · 06/12/2019 10:58

I so hate that lying bastard. Why the hell are people voting for him and his toxic party? Angry

prettybird · 06/12/2019 10:58

Good commentary re Scottish independence.

Re the Labour is aware that the Scottish Parliament’s voting system is designed to stop the SNP gaining a majority, a goal it has only once failed to achieve in the face of 3 SNP victories. : they conveniently ignore that there is already a majority in the Scottish Parliament for independence as the Scottish Green Party is pro-independence Confused So how many mandates do they want? Hmm

DGRossetti · 06/12/2019 11:00

I so hate that lying bastard. Why the hell are people voting for him and his toxic party?

Until the last vote is counted, how do we know they are. We are being told they are - but who by ? And cui bono ?