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Brexit

Westministenders: Promises, promises

985 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 17/11/2019 17:46

We should see the party manifestos soon
in 2017, that changed the election

So far, Tory and Labour have been competing for who can offer the most spending on the NHS

Labour have been giving tantalising glimpses of free dental care and free broadband

The Tories have been hinting at tax cuts, as well as public spending

The polls suggest the public like all of the above,
but also that Brexit is the most important issue

25 days to go, still all to play for

Westministenders' Abbreviations:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/3492426-Westministenders-Abbreviation?msgid=84503730

OP posts:
Thread gallery
37
derxa · 19/11/2019 15:57

his elk ?? Grin

DGRossetti · 19/11/2019 16:01

Now now DGR I know you watch QI - and I know you know full well that we all are descended from Charlemagne

Or I read Dawkins Grin Or both. Despite what some may say, you can never be too clever, well read, informed or rich. (But not necessarily in that order).

The Rossetti genetic tree throws up some very weird curveballs. My Dads brother has certain features that made him look like a white Muhammed Ali. Whilst my DB has picked up a blood condition typical of sub-Saharan Africa. (but I haven't got it). My 2 DBs and I are all O -ve, whilst DM was O +ve. And gawdonlyknows what was going on back in the 70s, but my Uncle got called on to donate blood in a very rare case (annoyingly DF doesn't know the details. But Uncle got a police escort to the hospital ?).

But who cares ? Aren't we all human anyway ? (Bites tongue over how we are going the wrong way ....)

DGRossetti · 19/11/2019 16:02

Now I did some work on this a few years ago. No one listened (obviously) and now some companies wonder why they are struggling ...

unherd.com/2019/11/young-urban-graduates-the-real-left-behinds/

unherd.com
Pity the poor avocado-eating graduates - UnHerd
Mary Harrington is a writer and political blogger
8-10 minutes

Of all the dire warnings issued in the run-up to the referendum, perhaps the least effective was George Osborne’s threat that house prices could crash by 18% in the event of Brexit.

For young people, home ownership is now an unattainable dream for all but a few, and so in 2017 when Aussie millionaire Tim Gurner said that millennials would be better able to buy homes if they spent less on avocado toast, the BBC calculated that it would take 67 years of renouncing avocado toast on a daily basis to save enough for a property in London at today’s prices. Why, then, would young people be so grimly devoted to the EU when a house price crash would benefit them at the expense of all those selfish Brexit-voting oldies?

Countless articles have rehearsed the class insecurities of the “left behind” Brexiters. Generally these unfortunates are depicted fulminating over pasties and ale in shabby market towns and grim post-industrial cities outside the London area. The object of their antipathy is the shiny “elite”, plugged into a promise-filled, multicultural urban life and the knowledge economy, seemingly buoyant in the new, frictionless modern world.

Leaving aside its substantive, real-world pros and cons, Europhilia has become a mark of devotion to the culture and worldview associated with this “elite” and the modern world it navigates. It is a value set strongly correlated with tertiary education and that has come to be called “openness”.

Brexit is not really about the UK’s constitutional relationship with the EU. It’s a fight for the values of equality, tolerance, openness, solidarity, internationalism, rationality and truth. You don’t defend values by ignoring them being stamped on.

— Steve Bullock (<strong>@GuitarMoog</strong>) July 3, 2019

The first election in which I was old enough to vote saw the election of Tony Blair, which makes me just middle-aged enough to remember this Britain arriving. Coffee not tea (and not instant coffee either); cities not towns; low-cost flights, not Butlins; multiculture not monoculture; Jamie Oliver, avocados, broadband, the restyled Mini Cooper; mass customisation; 50% of young people going to universities; everything done on a mountain of debt, especially that 50% graduate rate.

If Thatcherism opened the country economically, Blair’s Britain did so culturally. This double “openness” is the heart of “cultural Remain”.

By the same author
How motherhood put an end to my liberalism

By Mary Harrington

There are many desirable things about this “open” world and lifestyle. I am a big fan of avocados and European minibreaks, but even leaving aside these caricature “left behind” curmudgeons in the stagnant provinces, openness is a double-edged sword. One of its side effects has been a boom in the cost of living and, with it, a rising inequality (that began under Thatcher) and continued — particularly in the South — under Blair, only to get worse in the 2008 crash.

Meanwhile, the boom in openness-promoting tertiary education produced not so much a boom in graduate jobs as inflation in the qualification levels required to do the jobs we already had. This has left many young people struggling to service a mountain of debt on salaries that are never likely to show much of the “graduate premium” they were promised.

Today, thanks in part to the “open” economy whose values form the foundation of the “cultural Remain” identity, the cost of living — and especially home ownership — has rocketed. Simple aspirations that were within the reach of the working class in the 20th century are an unattainable dream today for millions of young people far higher up the sociocultural pile. And yet those young graduates have all, in the course of moving away to get their degree, absorbed the “open” value set now explicitly taught in tertiary education.

The result is an Everywhere precariat, that has absorbed the values of a world that has little to offer it in terms of concrete benefits, and resolves this conflict by renting the heavily-subsidised and internet-enabled perks of a smarter lifestyle than it can afford to buy. Where once rentals might have just been housing and cars, today that can even include clothing.

By the same author
Social mobility won't bring social justice

By Mary Harrington

The ferocious pro-EU rearguard action does not just represent the anger of an incumbent ruling class defending its perks. It also expresses the class anxieties of the lower echelons of those supposedly elite “open” classes, provisionally accepted as such via their graduate status, whose access to the perks of the open culture is at best precarious but whose cultural identity depends on it.

“Cultural Remain” should be understood less as a reasoned-through position and more as a highly emotional proxy for a faltering but still enticing lifestyle promise. As well as a howl of rage by a middle class unused to being balked, it is a wail of terror from young people terrified at the prospect of falling through the ever-thinning economic ice that separates the slick, happy modern “us” from the miserable, stagnant “them”. It is in this context that we should understand Corbynism.

Because the truth is that for many young people there is barely a fag paper between the urban twenty- and thirtysomething aspirational lifestyles rented via subscription services such as WeWork amid the coffee-shops and short-term rental markets of London, and those less fortunate ‘left-behind’ ones scraping by in the fulfilment hellscape of an Amazon depot.

No savings, no spare time, certainly no capacity to make long-term plans or get married or have kids. The only difference is that one lot get to enjoy their rented lifestyle along with avocado on toast and a “connected fitness experience” instead of ready meals and sanctions for taking time off sick.

Seen this way, one can understand better the totemic power of “freedom of movement”. You might not be able to afford to buy a house where you want to, but at least, says the optimism of youth, with freedom of movement we still have the limitless potential to try something new. To start afresh, somewhere else. Not to mention that same freedom means people with lifestyles even more precarious than our own can come here to staff coffee shops and warehouses, which reassures us we’ve got it better than them. That we’re still us.

Suggested reading
How to make Britain One Nation again

By David Skelton

But even that party may be drawing to an end. As Janan Ganesh recently noted, the days of the middle-class “world traveller” may be numbered. Graduate starting salaries in the UK are some of the lowest in northern Europe, especially in the creative sectors. Since the crash of 2008, wages for young people have been hit the hardest even as the burden of student debt rises.

The cost of living is rising faster for those in rental accommodation than for homeowners, and with it the cost of those ancillary lifestyle services that console young Everywheres for the way twentieth-century aspirations have moved beyond their grasp. WeWork, Uber and Peloton all posted staggering losses in 2019; how long before the price of their services goes up under investor pressure on the bottom line? Even the price of avocados tripled between 2013 and 2018. The urban Everywhere precariat is heading for a crunch.

They may have bought into the “open” cultural values disseminated by debt-fuelled universities. They may have flocked to London in search of a job in the media, and painted their faces blue to attend People’s Vote rallies.

But millions of young Everywheres are on their way to realising they are not counted among the elite any more. That, in fact, they never were, except on a subscription basis — and even the cost of those subscriptions is slipping from their grasp. We can expect a political reckoning to follow.

tobee · 19/11/2019 16:10

I think DGR was referring to a compilation of mistakes people have had with idioms with his elk.

(Explaining the joke is always ham fisted)

JustAnotherPoster00 · 19/11/2019 16:13

BBC Politics
@BBCPolitics
·
5m
'Nuisance' council tenants 'should live in tents' says Ashfield Tory candidate

www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50474572?ns_mchannel=social&ns_linkname=news_central&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_politics

The Prole Star
@TheProleStar
·
19m
The Tory candidate for Ashfield, Lee Anderson, wants to put people he considers unfit to live near him into tent labour camps & force them to work 12 hours a day...
What next - make the poor wear identifying badges?
Hang your head in shame
@Conservatives
#VoteLabourDecember12

twitter.com/i/status/1196818784822185985

thecatfromjapan · 19/11/2019 16:15

DGR Could I ask you to te-post that without the cross-through?

tobee · 19/11/2019 16:15

That will probably go down very well in some areas!

tobee · 19/11/2019 16:15

Sorry I was commenting on Just's post

Random18 · 19/11/2019 16:20

I've received nowt for the election. No polling cards or party literature

DH did get a leaflet from the Labour party but thatd probably due to Union membership.

DGRossetti · 19/11/2019 16:20

DGR Could I ask you to te-post that without the cross-through?

Er, I will happily, when I understand what cross-through is ? (Is it like cross-stitch ?).

thecatfromjapan · 19/11/2019 16:23

Derxa

He means: 'Socialism gives a voice to the masses.'

Or

'Socialism is a political discourse that prioritises the masses.'

Or

'The discourse of socialism centres the masses as its political subject(s).'

What, exactly, is 'patronising' in that?

He's made it a bit poetic and less jargon-y.

I think you must look for offence the way I sometimes look for hidden bits of chocolate at the back of the cupboard.

Chocolate would probably make you happier; offence-hunting is probably easier to be successful in.

Won't make you a happy person to be around. Will probably make you thin and joyless.

DGRossetti · 19/11/2019 16:23

Yes, his elk.

Right from the gecko, people have noted Boris has Turkish ancestry Grin.

lonelyplanetmum · 19/11/2019 16:24

Alsohuman - the link to the business insider at the end of my post explains the lack of impact assessments?

I guess they're relying on the previous analysis that a similar deal would reduce economic growth by 6.7%? If so it'd be nice to be told.

thecatfromjapan · 19/11/2019 16:24

Your post had loads of lines through it.

Which is a shame because it looks interesting - just really hard to read. 🙂

ListeningQuietly · 19/11/2019 16:27

cat
That must be the app as DGRs post is fine on my laptop

MrPan · 19/11/2019 16:28

Corbyn and Johnson this evening.
what are thoughts?

I'd hope and suspect that Corbyn will come across quite well. He is used to campaigning publically and knows how to react to difficult circs and questions - usually with a soft demeanor. Of course Johnson will bluster and lie and look smug and shifty, and if his recent 'speeches' are an indication he will make himself look an arse. His ego the size of a planet will demand this.

DGRossetti · 19/11/2019 16:28

I think you must look for offence the way I sometimes look for hidden bits of chocolate at the back of the cupboard. Chocolate would probably make you happier; offence-hunting is probably easier to be successful in.

Reg. D. Hunter (marmite to some, but adopted son of these Islands) did a piece on someone getting upset at a show, and did ask (rhetorically) why (some) people chose to go to a comedy show they (should) know is going to tickle some palates, and "put on their most sensitive self" to do so. Which is a good question.

Speaking of adopted sons, it was nice to hear Kevin Spacey is looking to get back on track by playing Prince Andrew in Season 4 of "The Crown"

waterfordwhispersnews.com/2019/11/18/kevin-spacey-to-play-prince-andrew-in-season-4-of-the-crown/

Hoooo · 19/11/2019 16:29

I'm out.
I shall rely on the far superior reporting of the debate on here...

ListeningQuietly · 19/11/2019 16:33

Corbyn v Johnson tonight
Can we play bingo on ......

  • masturbation jokes / comments by the PM
  • references to Venezuela / North Korea
  • references to Palestine
  • references to Turkish immigrants
  • references to Russian funding of parties

any more ?

DGRossetti · 19/11/2019 16:34

I'd hope and suspect that Corbyn will come across quite well. He is used to campaigning publically and knows how to react to difficult circs and questions - usually with a soft demeanor. Of course Johnson will bluster and lie and look smug and shifty, and if his recent 'speeches' are an indication he will make himself look an arse. His ego the size of a planet will demand this.

If the Tories had any sense (and that went the way of the gold standard it seems) they would have joined with Swinson and Sturgeon and pushed to have a 4-way debate tonight. Because it's the only way to possibly stop Boris looking like the colossal twat he is.

That said, we have to wait and see how the debate goes, and whether is is actually a debate, or a "debate" ? A really shit moderator will just let Boris waffle and interrupt and make completely unfounded and spurious claims and basically get away with it (immediately thinks of 90s song ... I wonder where Johnny Marr ranks Boris compared to Cameron ?)

Alsohuman · 19/11/2019 16:35

I’m recording it to watch after the old man’s gone to bed. He groans and holds his head in his hands whenever anything vaguely political is broadcast these days.

DGRossetti · 19/11/2019 16:35

No intention of watching the debate here. I'm sure there must be some sort of comedy about the Mafia I can find that will be far more entertaining.

bellinisurge · 19/11/2019 16:36

@ListeningQuietly
British Broadband?

JustAnotherPoster00 · 19/11/2019 16:37

Corbyn and Johnson this evening.
what are thoughts?

Johnson

No questions about policies, Russia report, Acruri or Islamaphobia
Plenty attacks on Corbyn
Loads of get Brexit done and parliament vs people soundbites

Corbyn

Questions about antisemitism, Ex Labour not thinking hes fit to be PM, will he press the button
Constant interruptions when trying to discuss policy

InMySpareTime · 19/11/2019 16:48

Steve Bullock (@GuitarMoog) July 3, 2019

The first election in which I was old enough to vote saw the election of Tony Blair, which makes me just middle-aged enough to remember this Britain arriving. Coffee not tea (and not instant coffee either); cities not towns; low-cost flights, not Butlins; multiculture not monoculture; Jamie Oliver, avocados, broadband, the restyled Mini Cooper; mass customisation; 50% of young people going to universities; everything done on a mountain of debt, especially that 50% graduate rate.

If Thatcherism opened the country economically, Blair’s Britain did so culturally. This double “openness” is the heart of “cultural Remain”.

By the same author
How motherhood put an end to my liberalism

By Mary Harrington

There are many desirable things about this “open” world and lifestyle. I am a big fan of avocados and European minibreaks, but even leaving aside these caricature “left behind” curmudgeons in the stagnant provinces, openness is a double-edged sword. One of its side effects has been a boom in the cost of living and, with it, a rising inequality (that began under Thatcher) and continued particularly in the South under Blair, only to get worse in the 2008 crash.

Meanwhile, the boom in openness-promoting tertiary education produced not so much a boom in graduate jobs as inflation in the qualification levels required to do the jobs we already had. This has left many young people struggling to service a mountain of debt on salaries that are never likely to show much of the “graduate premium” they were promised.

Today, thanks in part to the “open” economy whose values form the foundation of the “cultural Remain” identity, the cost of living and especially home ownership has rocketed. Simple aspirations that were within the reach of the working class in the 20th century are an unattainable dream today for millions of young people far higher up the sociocultural pile. And yet those young graduates have all, in the course of moving away to get their degree, absorbed the “open” value set now explicitly taught in tertiary education.

The result is an Everywhere precariat, that has absorbed the values of a world that has little to offer it in terms of concrete benefits, and resolves this conflict by renting the heavily-subsidised and internet-enabled perks of a smarter lifestyle than it can afford to buy. Where once rentals might have just been housing and cars, today that can even include clothing.

By the same author
Social mobility won't bring social justice

By Mary Harrington

The ferocious pro-EU rearguard action does not just represent the anger of an incumbent ruling class defending its perks. It also expresses the class anxieties of the lower echelons of those supposedly elite “open” classes, provisionally accepted as such via their graduate status, whose access to the perks of the open culture is at best precarious but whose cultural identity depends on it.

“Cultural Remain” should be understood less as a reasoned-through position and more as a highly emotional proxy for a faltering but still enticing lifestyle promise. As well as a howl of rage by a middle class unused to being balked, it is a wail of terror from young people terrified at the prospect of falling through the ever-thinning economic ice that separates the slick, happy modern “us” from the miserable, stagnant “them”. It is in this context that we should understand Corbynism.

Because the truth is that for many young people there is barely a fag paper between the urban twenty- and thirtysomething aspirational lifestyles rented via subscription services such as WeWork amid the coffee-shops and short-term rental markets of London, and those less fortunate ‘left-behind’ ones scraping by in the fulfilment hellscape of an Amazon depot.

No savings, no spare time, certainly no capacity to make long-term plans or get married or have kids. The only difference is that one lot get to enjoy their rented lifestyle along with avocado on toast and a “connected fitness experience” instead of ready meals and sanctions for taking time off sick.

Seen this way, one can understand better the totemic power of “freedom of movement”. You might not be able to afford to buy a house where you want to, but at least, says the optimism of youth, with freedom of movement we still have the limitless potential to try something new. To start afresh, somewhere else. Not to mention that same freedom means people with lifestyles even more precarious than our own can come here to staff coffee shops and warehouses, which reassures us we’ve got it better than them. That we’re still us.

Suggested reading
How to make Britain One Nation again

By David Skelton

But even that party may be drawing to an end. As Janan Ganesh recently noted, the days of the middle-class “world traveller” may be numbered. Graduate starting salaries in the UK are some of the lowest in northern Europe, especially in the creative sectors. Since the crash of 2008, wages for young people have been hit the hardest even as the burden of student debt rises.

The cost of living is rising faster for those in rental accommodation than for homeowners, and with it the cost of those ancillary lifestyle services that console young Everywheres for the way twentieth-century aspirations have moved beyond their grasp. WeWork, Uber and Peloton all posted staggering losses in 2019; how long before the price of their services goes up under investor pressure on the bottom line? Even the price of avocados tripled between 2013 and 2018. The urban Everywhere precariat is heading for a crunch.

They may have bought into the “open” cultural values disseminated by debt-fuelled universities. They may have flocked to London in search of a job in the media, and painted their faces blue to attend People’s Vote rallies.

But millions of young Everywheres are on their way to realising they are not counted among the elite any more. That, in fact, they never were, except on a subscription basis and even the cost of those subscriptions is slipping from their grasp. We can expect a political reckoning to follow.