Westminstenders: The Non-Pact Pact

[RedToothBrush]

The Brexit Party and the Conservatives have agreed a trumpian pact to no deal. Led by the ERG.

They don't want you to know its a pact because the Conservatives still want One Nation Conservatives types to believe they are still One Nation Conservatives, simply because they say they are. They are not.

The Brexit Party won't stand any candidates in a Conservative held seat. But don't be surprised if there isn't more Non-Pact tactical stepping aside. This of course won't be a Pact. Cos the Brexit Party say its not. And the Conservative Party say its not.

The Liberal Democrats, Plaid and the Greens are in an electoral pact. They say they are in an electoral pact and have published a list.

Meanwhile the Labour Party isn't in a Pact. But there is still talk that in key seats that someone (either the LDs or Labour) should stand aside to try and deseat key Conservatives. This won't happen because the Lib Dems and Labour are not in a pact. And when they say they are not in a pact they aren't.

If after an election we have a hung parliament then either the Conservatives or Labour who are not in a pact and say they will never be in a pact, will try and woo someone to a kingmaker and be in government with them, probably on a supply and demand basis rather than coalition. They'll deny this but we kind of know how this goes...

squid Id miss your input a great deal

I think the point is that posters on this thread want to vote for Labour so Corbyn’s and Labour’s current weaknesses matter. Many are choosing between Labour and A.N Other.

Whereas there’s only a handful of Tories here - and if they haven’t noticed by now the party is dominated by a bunch of proto-fascist racist liars and lunatics - there’s not much point spelling it out.

I think Labour’s problems extend way beyond AS. I don’t think it’s just Jewish members being bullied but also women.

I think the cabal behind Corbyn is highly problematic - Milne, McClusky and Murphy - altho the latter seems to be on detention at the moment.

Beth Rigby
@BethRigby
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6m
Worst ever performance on A&E 4 hour wait times. 95% target of seeing patients within four hours last met in July 2015. This bang on Labour territory and a reminder of a) perils of winter election b) politicians can try to set an election narrative but the story can change
Quote Tweet

Sky News Breaking
@SkyNewsBreak
· 26m
NHS England figures show 83.6% of patients were seen within four hours in all A&E departments last month compared to 85.2% in September and 89.1% in October 2018 marking the lowest performance since the collection began

DrBlackbird

Yes, of course, those who disagree with the Labour Party, its policies, and its leader, should just shut up and not challenge it. That’s a very original statement that Labour supporters make no more than half a dozen times a day, so thanks for sharing it.

those pointing out that Labour manifesto is not dissimilar to Social Democrats elsewhere (eg Nordic countries)

I’m sure that a socialist manifesto would be considered normal in a socialist country, yes, and that the Tories’ manifesto would be considered borderline pinko commie in the United States. So what? We’re talking about this country, with our political traditions, where no party as far left as Corbyn’s has been elected since at least 1974, and Wilson was arguably to the right of Corbyn in several areas.

I think the point is that posters on this thread want to vote for Labour so Corbyn’s and Labour’s current weaknesses matter. Many are choosing between Labour and A.N Other.

This is fair enough, but surely the thought of a bunch of incompetent disaster capitalists and proto-fascists in cabinet should concentrate minds.

The error people are making is to forget that the risk of a Johnson majority govt is quite high (at least 50% chance), whereas the risk of a Corbyn majority govt is almost zero.

Nobody is saying that those who disagree with the Labour Party should ‘shut up’ C...ings.

Many people disagree with Labour/Corbyn on here and add to the discussion in a healthy way.

I think you specifically are being asked to refrain from nastily spouting the same thing over and again. All you are trying to achieve is to shout people down and raise stress levels.

I read your posts and try to ignore them because what I observe are bullying tactics. Nothing you write has so far enlightened , informed or furthered discussion.

I've stopped reading them. If there is anything of worth in them, other people will comment on the content

Wilson was arguably to the right of Corbyn
and the argument is?
The 2017 labour manifesto was well to the right of any Wilson manifesto - remember Wilson was pre the huge privatisations, the demolition of the unions and the rise to corrupt supremacy of London and the money men - his policies were grounded in that far more socialist environment - labour have a long way to go for that to be a dream let alone a goal.

I'm afraid that is exactly what is being said. Support Corbyn because the other lot are terrible. They are BOTH terrible. We are all being short changed.

"Brexit and climate change will have impacts long after most of the current MPs are dead
vote on the big issues, not the personalities"

Hear, hear ListeningQuietly

I got a message from Remain Labour today. Confirming that 136 Labour Candidates have signed the pledge to campaign to Remain in the EU.

Funny isn't it - as I do have more trust that Labour candidates would stand by a pledge,

I also thought of writing to the Labour candidate where I live (in a LibDem/ Tory very narrow marginal ) and begging them not to stand or at the very least to not try too hard.

Apart from that feeling pretty miserable. The false points normal leavers cling to are still the same three years on:

The main chestnuts are still:

•Norway/Switzerland -A not especially close friend on my FB has started making her first political posts. All rubbish like " Switzerland isn't in the EU but it's doing rather well I will have that thanks." OMG what's the point explaining that it's in the bloody single market? They won't listen.
• Health and education -On other threads still leavers repeating tripe that our health and education services would be ok if it wasn't for EU arrivals.
• Status quo unaffected Other same old stuff from Leavers about how the City and financial services will only be minimally affected,if at all.
• immigration Other some old stuff about how they feel EU migration was generally a detriment to jobs etc.

I've tried to get the actual facts out there -but what's the point. These false beliefs are hard wired now after three years

Choice is between a Johnson majority govt or a Corbyn minority one.

There are no other choices.

Yes we are being shortchanged, it’s a question of which party is least acceptable. In my case it’s anyone but the Tories and I’ll hold my nose and vote for the most likely to defeat them.

Point being is that if the next govt is a Tory one it will be a majority government.

There are virtually no potential partners for the Tory govt that they haven't pissed off already.

If there is a Corbyn govt it will be a minority govt, probably with limited C&S from other parties. It is likely to be another short parliament unless Corbyn shows he can work with others, but at least it should enable Brexit to be dealt with responsibly.

My Dad stopped voting after Suez (showing my age ). My mum followed suit. I begged them to start again, even to spoil their papers. My Dad never did. My mum started again and voted Remain before she died.
I fear I'm at the spoiling ballot stage. Can't find a single redeeming feature about any of them that makes them worthy of my support.

Please keep posting, squid. You're posts reinforce what my daughter tells me. She's a doctor in your area, maybe in the same hospital. She's voting Labour. (When you first posted I thought you were her!)

Dusty01

I think you specifically are being asked to refrain from nastily spouting the same thing over and again.

The other thing that grinds my gears is hypocrisy. A huge chunk of any one of these threads is comprised of posts “nastily spouting the same thing over and again” at Boris, the Tories, anyone who isn’t on board the big red Labour / Left / Remain mothership. But you’ve never said a word about those things being posted, have you, no matter what the quantity or the degree of nastiness? Looks a little bit hypocritical, no?

I too appreciate your contributions squid4

They are particularly relevant given the latest A&E waiting time figures.

If there is a Corbyn govt it will be a minority govt, probably with limited C&S from other parties. It is likely to be another short parliament unless Corbyn shows he can work with others, but at least it should enable Brexit to be dealt with responsibly.

Sorry, but this is precisely the kind of narrative that permits shock election results. Part of the reason why Brexit and Trump won and Corbyn did well last time is because the media rammed home the message that that side winning was impossible - therefore many people voted for that “impossible” outcome without believing it possible or even really wanting it to happen, as a way of expressing their feelings or signalling their identity or just sticking it to the establishment.

If enough people vote for an extreme outcome, it can most certainly win, and that includes Corbyn. Lulling people into a false sense of security is not a terribly reputable tactic, given the events of the last few years.

I've stopped reading them. If there is anything of worth in them, other people will comment on the content

Sound advice little birdie

OMG what's the point explaining that it's in the bloody single market? They won't listen.

Only brutal contact with reality tends to change closed minds, and not even that in some cases. The time for debating with stupid or incurious people ended long ago.

Just piping up to say that I am still here and reading.

I don't really have anything useful to add at the moment and still struggling with who to vote for, hopefully things will become clearer!

Hi Tokyo, I posted a link to Jon Worth's blog yesterday as he has some stuff on tactical voting & comparisons of the tactical voting sites, here if you didn't see it and are interested: jonworth.eu/2019-uk-general-election-tactical-voting-guide/

The tactical voting websites only disagree on a handful of seats. That Jon Worth blog is an interesting read even if you disagree with his conclusions.