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Westminstenders: The Non-Pact Pact

994 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/11/2019 00:23

The Brexit Party and the Conservatives have agreed a trumpian pact to no deal. Led by the ERG.

They don't want you to know its a pact because the Conservatives still want One Nation Conservatives types to believe they are still One Nation Conservatives, simply because they say they are. They are not.

The Brexit Party won't stand any candidates in a Conservative held seat. But don't be surprised if there isn't more Non-Pact tactical stepping aside. This of course won't be a Pact. Cos the Brexit Party say its not. And the Conservative Party say its not.

The Liberal Democrats, Plaid and the Greens are in an electoral pact. They say they are in an electoral pact and have published a list.

Meanwhile the Labour Party isn't in a Pact. But there is still talk that in key seats that someone (either the LDs or Labour) should stand aside to try and deseat key Conservatives. This won't happen because the Lib Dems and Labour are not in a pact. And when they say they are not in a pact they aren't.

If after an election we have a hung parliament then either the Conservatives or Labour who are not in a pact and say they will never be in a pact, will try and woo someone to a kingmaker and be in government with them, probably on a supply and demand basis rather than coalition. They'll deny this but we kind of know how this goes...

OP posts:
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Oakenbeach · 14/11/2019 08:55

It's the aggressive militancy I find unbecoming and divisive every bit as much as militant leavers. They can still be remain but language and framing are still important.

Completely agree. The LDs position, and moreover their tone, is divisive. They act
like a pressure group, not a party of Government to which they aspire.

Oakenbeach · 14/11/2019 08:57

@TatianaLarina

Thank you. I will read when I get a chance.

Peregrina · 14/11/2019 08:58

I woke up this morning feeling utterly depressed. Earlier this week we had Remembrance Sunday and Remembrance Day itself, plus quite heated debates on other threads about whether to wear a red poppy or not.

Please people, and I am preaching to the converted here, let's stop this squabbling about who is a good/bad leader, who is/is not ideologically pure. Let's remember that those who were alive to support WW2 set up the welfare state. They set it up to see the end of grinding poverty, to see the end of people dying because they were too scared to go to the doctor because they couldn't afford his fee, or people starving because there was no work.

When you cast your vote, think of these things. I am 100% sure that if Johnson and his (current) ERG chums get back in, we will say goodbye to the NHS and we will say goodbye to hard won workers rights, and health and safety protection.

DrBlackbird · 14/11/2019 09:07

Cendrillion you're reminding me of a colleague ahead of the US 2016 Presidential election. He'd go on and on criticising Clinton about being such a 'hawk' but conveniently forget to comment about (and completely ignore) the abomination that was is Trump.

If you don't like Corbyn, then presumably you won't vote for him. But I really don't get why you are going on and on about him as the worst socialist threat ever. Reading through these threads you can see that there's a mix of voting intentions. Yes, some are voting Labour and offer principled reasons for doing so. But you don't seem to take on board PP's who either agree they don't like Corbyn but see Johnson as a the bigger problem or those pointing out that Labour manifesto is not dissimilar to Social Democrats elsewhere (eg Nordic countries).

Overall, your insistent criticisms of Corbyn do not seem to really add much to the debate. There are choices out there other than Labour/Corbyn. Why not say who you are going to vote for and why?

cloudydaysinautumn · 14/11/2019 09:31

Overall, your insistent criticisms of Corbyn do not seem to really add much to the debate.

Extreme criticisms of Corbyn are not intended to add to debate, they are simply intended to add to the constant drip drip drip reinforcing the subconscious national impression of him as scary and dangerous and unfit for government.

This link was posted on these threads a while back, research showing that Corbyn actually does suffer from bias in press reporting:

www.lse.ac.uk/media-and-communications/assets/documents/research/projects/corbyn/Cobyn-Report.pdf

I think if you are tempted to vote Labour but are scared 'but Corbyn', it would be wise to look beneath the surface and ask yourself what ulterior motives there might be in trying to prevent a Labour government from coming about....

When there are politicians, notably the actual Prime Minister (!!!), who are very obviously much more dangerous individuals with much more actual likelihood of wielding power, who are not facing the same onslaught you do have to ask yourself why.

I for one don't want to feel that I am being manipulated...

Peregrina · 14/11/2019 09:37

Extreme criticisms of Corbyn are not intended to add to debate,...
Add in Swinson too, and Sturgeon if in Scotland. The Tories are not confident, and are trying to blacken the names of the Opposition leaders.

Mind you, I think they over egged it last election with Corbyn, and I for one began to think 'give the man a break', and I don't suppose I was alone.

bellinisurge · 14/11/2019 09:38

I have no problem with a Labour government and have always voted Labour back to Michael Foot. But Corbyn is utterly unsuitable , intellectually weak (unlike Foot, for example), prone to sucking up to the worst kind of bastard in the interests of claiming to want to speak peace. Funny how he never took up the offer to speak to the Israeli Labour Party Hmm
And I remember the Brighton Bomb and how he fell over himself to talk to the IRA. Unlike any government secret talks, his cosy chats with bastards served no purpose other than self-aggrandising.

TheABC · 14/11/2019 09:51

@bellinisurge, out of curiosity who would you pick to be PM? What would be your ideal fantasy cabinet?

When I tried, I ended up with a sprinkling of MPs from all parties! Which probably means I will never be happy, whoever wins. Grin

Limitedsimba123 · 14/11/2019 09:57

I have never voted labour and honestly despise Corbyn, but I also think both main parties are as bad as each other. The two main criticisms of Corbyn/Labour seem to be the antisemitism and that he is a threat to national security. On the flip side, the tories are clearly islamophobic, Patel is seemingly now targeting travellers and they are also a threat to national security with their ties to Russia.

Ultimately the most important thing for me is stopping Brexit, so I will vote tactically which means voting labour for the very first time.

QueenOfThorns · 14/11/2019 09:58

There have been a couple of mentions of the Labour manifesto this morning. Aha! I thought, I must read this document and find out exactly how much jam the commie courgette is planning to steal. But based on my visit to the Labour Party website, it hasn’t actually been released yet, so anything people are saying right now is pure speculation. I, for one, will be reserving judgement.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 14/11/2019 10:00

Corbyn, McDonnell, and the Irish peace process

Corbyn's sin was to recognise possibilities for political dialogue that the government of the day was not yet ready to acknowledge.

www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/corbyn-mcdonnell-and-irish-peace-process/

JustAnotherPoster00 · 14/11/2019 10:02

I think Labours gets released next week Queen, dont quote me on that though

bellinisurge · 14/11/2019 10:05

@JustAnotherPoster00 bollocks. But keep telling yourself he's Mo Mowlem if that works for you.
@TheABC , it's tricky. I'm a big Cooper fan for all her faults. Also like Jess Phillips if she wanted a more senior role. Benn is good. Dominic Greave maybe. Starmer, I suppose.
Basically, Labour Centrists+ Grin

DrBlackbird · 14/11/2019 10:05

Bellini I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your characterisation of Corbyn, but would you say that much of those accusations could also be levelled against Johnson?

Intellectually weak....For all of his Oxford Classics 2:1, he comes out with some ridiculously stupid comments eg Boosterism. Prone to sucking up to the worst kind of bastard...Trump? Orban? Putin....?? And Johnson seems to be actively undermining peace in NI...

And isn't self aggrandising is the whole point of Johnson!

bellinisurge · 14/11/2019 10:06

Totally agree about Johnson. Didn't say I didn't.Grin

JustAnotherPoster00 · 14/11/2019 10:09

@JustAnotherPoster00 bollocks. But keep telling yourself he's Mo Mowlem if that works for you

a) I dont post for your benefit bellini
b) It popped up on my timeline so I shared it because again I dont post for your benefit
c) bellini a lot of what comes out of your mouth I consider bollocks so get ........

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 14/11/2019 10:09

When I tried, I ended up with a sprinkling of MPs from all parties! Which probably means I will never be happy, whoever wins.
Me too. Though if we're going for a random assortment of mps in the cabinet I may as well add that I'd like Caroline Lucas to be PM. I'm not naturally a Green Party voter but I have more faith in her than most of the others (I know she's not the party leader/co leader any more as well)

tobee · 14/11/2019 10:10

I feel so sad that we are in this situation, that people like @squid4 should be in this position and contemplating leaving the health service. If squid is saying this on this forum, how many other doctors, how many other hcp, who are not on here are saying this?

I'll be sad if you leave the thread squid, with your messages keeping us thinking.

Just as I write this a drop down news alert comes in from Sky News re the NHS a&e waiting times.

prettybird · 14/11/2019 10:11

Not sure if this has been posted: the HoL managed to get an initial analysis done and issued despite the Government's best efforts Hmmof EU Withdrawal Bill prior to Parliament being dissolved. Points out a lot of uncomfortable truths of what is included. No wonder the Government didn't want proper scrutiny Angry

https://bylinetimes.com/2019/11/08/boris-johnsons-brexit-withdrawal-bill-power-grabs-torpedoed-by-house-of-lords-peers/

ListeningQuietly · 14/11/2019 10:11

Good morning from the Irish Border

Keep eyes on the prize folks
Parties are ephemeral
what matters is the economic future of our children and grandchildren

We need to cast our votes in the way that achieves the best outcome where we live

Brexit and climate change will have impacts long after most of the current MPs are dead
vote on the big issues, not the personalities

DrBlackbird · 14/11/2019 10:13

Basically Labour Centrists

This If all of these politicians were in one centrist party, it would win with a landslide.

tobee · 14/11/2019 10:16

If I remember correctly, Jess Phillips hasn't been great on self id. Disappointing.

Interesting to see what happens with the candidate deadline today.

Alsohuman · 14/11/2019 10:17

Eurgh, I may have to take a break from this thread.

Please don’t @squid4 if you can possibly bear to post here. I’m sure I’m not the only one who really values your input.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 14/11/2019 10:17

This If all of these politicians were in one centrist party, it would win with a landslide.

I think the country is being bled dry into private hands so austerity is now being felt by the middle classes, we as welfare recipients tried to warn them but they didnt listen and voted Tory again in 2015, add to that the complete polarisation of the country because of the referendum you;ve got the perfect condition for 'extremist' politics, I doubt centrists right now would gain much ground