Westminstenders: The end of tribalism

[RedToothBrush]

There are signs that traditional party alignment might well have broken.

The Tories have split, labour are pretending they have not.

The pattern so far seems to be closely following the EU. This favours a Tory majority.

A long way to go.

Pretty what is scottish education like now? I see it's something the SNP get criticised for but not being there I can't comment.

Being in England now, I've always been worried that my kids won't get as good an education. But in fairness they seem to be doing ok (young primary).

• We can't do anything about press bias.

But we can call out the crap on social media.

• We can't do anything about social media ads or the infiltration of outside influence

But we can canvass on the streets.

Keep talking, keep the debate going and if you do have a party choice, volunteer to help.

I have deliberately not named any of the political parties, but under our democracy it is our right to debate and campaign for them. That's what I am going to do.

I should like to point out that both Ken Clarke and Michael Hesseltine served in Thatcher’s Government, as did John Major.

I suppose we should also acknowledge the malignant presence of John Redwood (albeit briefly) and Peter Lilley; however, honour and integrity were still a consideration for the majority of the Cabinet.

Bugger, wrote a long reply Random and MN ate it

Strictly is about to start and have my Strictly BitchPod to post on - so I'll reply later

I think that, for many people, seeing Heseltine as one of the voices of reason recently has been a symptom of just how bad things are.

While he embodies certain core values, as mentioned, he's also connected with a very difficult period in UK politics.

"If you allow the press to be dominated by foreign magnates
How would you prevent this ?"

The USA has a legal requirement that only US citizens are permitted to own US US TV stations.

That's why Murdoch became a naturalised citizen in 1985

The UK could pass a similar law for both TV and newspapers

• The USA is a much bigger country geographically, hence its mass ciculation press is far more diverse and widely spread around the country

However, there are a much smaller number of UK mass circulation papers, which are arguably as influential as TV

Social media is certainly increasing in political importance, but many voters read the press, even if only online.

I've mentioned before that some of the Tory rebels would not have been considered particularly "liberal" Tories before, because some of them were quite happy within a Thatcher-run Tory party, or even serving in her govt

It shows how far right the Tories have swung

Over 70 MPs standing down this GE so far

That's staggering, since we had a GE only 2 ½ years ago

Yes, BigChoc.

Actually though Peter Lilley was incredibly thick he was very obedient to his civil servants. We tried to progress a business proposal which would have radically reduced our costs and increased our markets , with the support of the chief Secretary at the DTI (who wore dirty raincoats and skulked about in the manner of a John Le Carre spy). It progressed a long way whilst we managed to keep it at Secretary of State level but in the end the investment proposal reached the desk of Margaret Thatcher and it was handbagged because it went against her free market ideology (since then similar public sector organisations in other countries have followed the same strategy and now dominate global markets). His problems were, unlike Deadwood, of being ineffectual and just not very bright at all.

Bigchoc - thank you for answering my question about press ownership.
Surely the objection about the right wing press in Britain is because they are right wing rather than the fact they have a foreign owner. I haven’t heard any complaints about the Independent’s owner being Russian.

Therefore even if there was a law that they had to be owned by a British citizen they could still be right wing?

Dapplegrey Actually questions about Lebedev have been raised on here particularly in relation to Boris's relationship with him, as manifested in having clearly got completely ratarsed at his party in Italy.
www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/26/boris-johnson-security-evgeny-lebedev-perugia-party

I do find it hard to believe he belongs in the same box as other Russian players given his media activities. He is clearly a huge anglophile, he lives in Hampton Court Park and can be seen there dressed in full English shooting gear including plus 4s walking his wolf Boris

So was I, this bunch of bastards make Thatcher look positively benign. I think you missed out the words self interested and incompetent.

I really could never have believed that British politics could degenerate to the point that Tory politicians of the 70s and 80s have become good guys

The Irish Times, which owns the Irish Examiner, is owned by a non-charitable trust that pays no dividends but uses profits to build the newspaper. Tony O Reilly used to own the Irish Independent and London Independent but I don't know who owns either of them now.

When I was at school we were taught about newspaper bias and the difference between tabloids and broad sheets.

I’m part-French I’m allowed to criticise my own part-time country.

France reported a 75% rise in antisemitic offences in 2018 compared to 16% in the U.K. I observe there a growing climate of racism, anti-semitism and anti-elitism.

Wrt Rothschild the objection was partly because he was a rich capitalist who might interfere editorially and jeopardise independence; but arguably imo it was equally rooted in the same populist left mistrust of Jewish capitalist elite - bankers, Rothschilds, control of the media conspiracy etc - that Corbyn has got himself caught up in here. (His antisemitic mural-gate is a case in point).

My experience of France has always been that racism is more popularly acceptable than it was here. Shockingly so when I first spent a lot of timeM there having grown up in London.

I could list all the instances of racism in France I personally witnessed or experienced by friends but it would take while. I’d also say the same of Italy where I’ve also spent a lot of time.

Two recent football incidents are good examples. The racist abuse of Ballotelli that caused him to kick a ball into the stands. And the comment from Lilian Thuram, famous French footballer, that racism is part of French, Italian and generally white European culture, which caused a hooha in France.

The activist Rokhaya Diablo recently remarked that ‘France sees itself as a white country’. Absolutely true.

I’m suspicious of people who get arsey at the mention of racism. To disagree with my interpretation of the Libération saga is fine, but to take offence at highlighting the general problem of racism in France - really?

Suspicious?
What do you mean?

This is brutal

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/09/think-youll-dodge-a-painful-political-choice-youre-away-with-the-fairies-general-election

Nick Cohen on top form:

"The propaganda of emotional blackmailers is already everywhere. If you don’t vote for Corbyn, you hate the poor. If you don’t vote for Johnson, you love the suicide bombers.... We have two possible futures: one that contains a fleeting flash of hope and a second that is thoroughly miserable but is no more than we deserve.

Pacts against extremists can be organised, as long as there is only one of them. Twice this century, the French left has swallowed all its principles except the most important principle of all: the need to stop the far right seizing control of the republic.

...

Britain does not face a binary choice. After Johnson’s purge, the Tory benches will be full of hard-faced hacks determined to impose Brexit, whatever the cost. Momentum will ensure the next batch of Labour MPs will contain more incontinent cranks than any country deserves... If, however, enough Lib Dems, Greens and nationalists win, they can act as a blocking minority that will limit Johnson or Corbyn’s worst excesses.

But there I go, playing fantasy politics. The fate of the #NeverTrump movement shows the likely fate of Britain.

...

On this reading, Britain will have to experience a Johnson Brexit or a Corbyn government before enough voters turn against them. It is as if large sections of the population have reverted to childhood and must learn all over again that there are no fairies in our #NeverNeverLand, only monsters."

hi,
sorry it's a bit late but thank you so much for the anger/positivity in reply to my message this morning!
Me and DP are going to commit to doing AT LEAST one thing in support of local campaigns. I will look through what I can next day off
work is a bit insane (and we nearly got flooded this week... had to sandbag and move our stuff upstairs and were on standby to evacuate, though thankfully our house was spared, and then it's been hours of commuting with the floods) it's been fairly exhausting

Prettybird
Jeremy Vine Twitter (3rd Nov 2018):This graphic is insane.Keep staring at it and thinking there must be something wrong.The gap between people in the poorest parts of Britain, and the richest.

Jeremy Vine 4th Nov 2018:
"It turns out that this graph is deeply misleading according to a lot of people who study the numbers."

FullFact;
"One measure of inequality makes the UK look far less equal than other countries—it's not."

"Claim"
"In the UK there’s a huge difference in wealth per person between the poorest and richest regions, compared to other countries."

"Conclusion"
"This is because of the way the data is collected, rather than real world effects.Using other measures the UK’s income inequality is about average compared to similar countries."

fullfact.org/economy/regional-inequality-figures-misleading/

My experience of France has always been that racism is more popularly acceptable than it was here. Shockingly so when I first spent a lot of timeM there having grown up in London.

Where did you spend time in France?

Most places in Europe, including most of the rest of the U.K., look racist if you compare them to London.

Yeah I really don't like that graph. The UK is an unequal economy, and wealth is overly concentrated in London, but there are much better metrics.

The propaganda of emotional blackmailers is already everywhere.

I was listening to Christine Jardine, Liberal Democrat Spokesperson on Home Affairs being interviewed on LBC this morning - concerning free child care from 9 months.

Interviewer: How will it be paid for?
Christine Jardine: Out of corporation tax.
Interviewer: It won't just be paid for out of corporation tax will it? There will be an increase in capital gains tax as well.
Christine Jardine: "Do you want to live in a fair society or not?"
Interviwer: So it won't be paid for out of corporation tax?
Christine Jardine: "Yeah but..."

Where did you spend time in France?

Paris and the south. It was the racism in Paris that struck me the most as I assumed it would be like London. Racism is not a provincial problem in France as much as a systemic, institutional one I think rooted in its history.

Suspicious?
What do you mean?

Well - you’re not in the best company.

Clavinova Clearly you do not appreciate the issues around childcare in this country. The cost of this proposal is actually the least of its problems but as a statement of intent, any party that is actually addressing it is a step ahead. The same goes for properly addressing the dementia care crisis.....