Westminstenders: The end of tribalism

[RedToothBrush]

There are signs that traditional party alignment might well have broken.

The Tories have split, labour are pretending they have not.

The pattern so far seems to be closely following the EU. This favours a Tory majority.

A long way to go.

I'm just glad that I - and almost all the people I know - do still have a sense of societal responsibility and are happy to pay taxes (most of us are higher rate tax payers - which in Scotland effectively means we pay even more) to ensure a caring society that cares for the vulnerable, provides good quality education and health care for all and decent public services.

I do believe - and will continue to believe - in societal collective responsibility

I don't believe (and have never believed) in trickle down economics: that's a convenient fig leaf and not even that more like the Emperor's New Clothes for the rich getting richer and fuck the poor because it's their fault they're poor I have never understood the logic (let alone the Economics - and I have an Economics degree ) that the rich need to be taxed less (ie "given" more money) in order to incentivise them, whereas the poor need to have money taken off them in order to incentivise them

I agree with Graham Norton's attitude. Whether or not he actually said it (I haven't checked), it's still an ethos that chimes with me

Yes. I'll be very curious to see how far the London/Oxford/Cambridge "halo" extends in this regard.

I think it extends to the multicultural cities that voted Remain.

Mistigri, you're right, of course, and my post was a bit hasty. But the problem with FPTP is that when it repeatedly favours the Tories, who are less and less concerned with social welfare and more and more geared towards an individualistic worldview, it ties in with the unpleasant "winner takes all" attitude.

And this also ties in with what a PP said about it being illogical to only consider that such policies matter at national, not global, level and it therefore being silly to even bother with them.

A country in which there is a less obvious gulf between the rich and the poor, including the working poor, and where the collective good is deemed a worthwhile concept, is obviously a country that is better placed, and more likely, to extend such policies beyond its borders and expand the notion of"collective" than one which has turned in upon itself and encouraged its citizens to do so.

Trickle down turned out to be trickle up a long time ago.

For me the question is - is this right wing lark a blip, an aberration that will rectify itself. Or were the post war Labour governments, the conception and provision of the welfare state and NHS etc - in large part shaped by the experience of two world wars (particularly the collective Blitz spirit of the second) and a socialist digression in an essentially right wing country? Successive right wing governments have been trying to dismantle these state institutions ever since.

Maybe this is who ‘we’ are?

I assume that what we have seen in parliament mirrors what is going on in the country. The move to unseat Dominic Grieve was led by a former UKIPer who had been joined by many more. Where Boris has alienated many one nation centrist Tories he has endeared himself to many who replace them, from UKIP or Labour. I assume that is what is going on. People who think Dominic Raab and Pritti Patel are a good thing..... The ones I know are blowhard Boris fans voted Brexit party last time “because parliament need telling” and now think “Boris will get it done”

"I think it extends to the multicultural cities that voted Remain."

I'm not sure there is as much potential for a halo effect in northern cities (if only because there is already more LAB in the halo)

TatianaLarina - I've told the story regularly on here about Robert Maxwell of the Kings Fund coming to see a group of so called high fliers at the Health Services Management Unit and Manchester Uni on 5 November 1991 and describing to our group the background to the reasons for the setting up of the NHS and the welfare state - which were exactly as you describe - a consequence of the 2 World Wars and a collective Blitz spirit.

He said that ever since then, UK society had been moving back to the "individual" and away from "society" with. the. exception. of. Scotland.

I can remember looking around the table (about 12 or 15 of us) and every. single. one. of. us. (employed by Yorkshire and Trent Regional Health Authorities, having left successful careers in industry to join this programme) were Scottish or Scottish educated

"Maybe this is who ‘we’ are?"

If you allow the press to be dominated by foreign magnates you will get a press that encourages voters to vote for policies that favour rich people who don't pay UK tax or use UK services. And those voters will often oblige.

Although I haven't yet given up, I've been thinking a running support thread might be needed for 5 years at least after a Tory majority.

*running support thread - I'm not meaning for joggers btw

If you allow the press to be dominated by foreign magnates

How would you prevent this, mistigri?

Who owns newspapers in France or Germany, for example?

Le Monde is run by a holding co-owned by 2 French businessmen, Xavier Niel (telecoms) and Mathieu Pigasse (who worked in finance and banking, I think).

Le Figaro belongs to Dassault, a huge French company with fingers in many pies (aviation, real estate, waste/recycling, etc.)

Almost all French press receive state funding.

And I think that when it was first suggested that Libération might be partly sold to a Rothschild, a considerable number of journalists resigned. And he is French.

I can't think of a French paper that is not French-owned. I wonder whether there is legislation about it, but haven't time to check. State subsidies are presumably at least partly to try and provide some kind of guarantee against buyouts. More knowledgeable people will hopefully be along soon...

Hopefully soon nobody will read newspapers?

Maybe the most up to date news will be posted on twitter and then talked about on threads like this.

I’m not bothering reading newspapers so much now.

If you allow the press to be dominated by foreign magnates you will get a press that encourages voters to vote for policies that favour rich people who don't pay UK tax or use UK services. And those voters will often oblige.

Essential Toryism of conservative values + tradition vs social reform goes back to their inception and the anti Europe schtick goes back as far as the reformation imo. Media owners are simply stoking something that’s pre-existent. Sadly the Barclays and Rothermere are British. (grand père Rothermere was a big fan of Hitler so the current viscount is following family tradition).

And I think that when it was first suggested that Libération might be partly sold to a Rothschild, a considerable number of journalists resigned. And he is French.

He’s Jewish and a bit Syrian though and the French are quite racist or let’s say chauviniste. He might as well be foreign.

the French are quite racist

NAFALT

So much for Javid claiming yesterday how much better income inequality is

We are not much better than Greece for the poor recovery since the Financial crisis - while other OECD countries have shown real growth.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/uk-workers-have-had-the-worst-wage-growth-in-the-oecd-except-greece-a7773246.html

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Given how many UKIP supporters needed a change of underwear after a "special moment" not that long ago, this should provide food for thought ...

the French are quite racist

Nasty generalisation.

.

Who owns newspapers in France or Germany, for example?

Don't know about Germany. French national press owned mainly by French interests as has been noted. Also France doesn't really have a national tabloid press, but it has a much more active local press, which is pretty widely read. Round here bars routinely have a couple of local papers for customers to read (La dépêche, midi libre) but almost never national papers.

I was again posting in haste and I'm very sorry my post led to such an offensive and insulting generalisation about the French.

Journalists at Libé resigned not because of who Rothschild was but because the presence of a private investor of any sort went against everything Libération had stood for at the start. It was set up after May 1968 as non-hierarchical, without any paid ads, and was funded solely by subscriptions and sales, usually at news kiosks. It is neither left nor right-wing and is usually on pretty poor terms with all major parties.

Rothschild got about 35%, IIRC, and the simple fact that a private investor, not him in particular, had bought a stake in the paper, put off a lot of left-wing readers. The resignations were provoked in part by his announcement that he would pull out unless the editor, Dreyfus, went, - it was felt that he was interfering in what had hitherto been a determinedly open and free paper, where writing mattered more than political affiliation and that his main aim was to sell papers and get rich, rather than provide quality journalism, which LIbération has always been known for.

A quick look at some of the (prize-winning) journalists working/who worked at the paper, and at the articles it publishes, shows that the idea anyone resigned because Rothschild "might as well be foreign" is just plain wrong.

Anyway, back to Brexit for some much needed peace and harmony...

I was a young adult under Thatcher- you think this lot of useless dickwipes is bad?

So was I, this bunch of bastards make Thatcher look positively benign.