Westminstenders: The end of tribalism

[RedToothBrush]

There are signs that traditional party alignment might well have broken.

The Tories have split, labour are pretending they have not.

The pattern so far seems to be closely following the EU. This favours a Tory majority.

A long way to go.

Hester you have summed up exactly my thoughts. Thank you.

I think we need to keep coming back to this.

Cendrillon: what are your thoughts on Hester’s, just above?

Politics is a winner-takes-all game, and those who think it isn’t tend to be the ones wondering why they never win.

And thats why life under Tory rule is always shit. Governments are supposed to work for the people, not feather their own nests. It'll be interesting to see if Brexit voters still feel like winners 10 years down the line. I'm sure Johnson and Farrage will be doing just fine.

Against a backdrop of startlingly sharp falls in circulation ...

DGRossetti are those statistics for paper papers or do they include online readership?

Dan Carden
@DanCardenMP
I have been categorical in my denial about allegations relating to a coach trip some twenty months ago.

This was a coach full of journalists and MPs. If anyone genuinely believed any anti-semitic behaviour had taken place, they would’ve had a moral responsibility... (1/2)
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@DanCardenMP
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... to report it immediately. Yet this allegation is only made now when a General Election is imminent.

I stand by my record as an anti racist campaigner. I would never be part of any behaviour that undermines my commitment to fighting racism in all its forms. (2/2)

Cendrillin: what are your thoughts on Hester’s, just above?

I think it’s a very pleasant fantasy that sounds lovely on paper. It also, frankly, sounds like something that very few people would vote for in practice since it would require colossal levels of taxation, and not just on the “rich”, but on everyone.

That’s very worrying because the only way we’re going to survive as a race is by working together; not by ’othering’ people and saying they don’t deserve what we have.

Come on, do you even really believe this utopian stuff yourself? What would happen to living standards in this country if we stopped “othering” the rest of the planet and redistributed all our economic power and assets so that everyone in the whole world had the same minute but equal share?

I’ll tell you what - it would make a No Deal Brexit look like an eternal champagne dinner at Claridge’s. Ironically, a key purpose of the EU is to insulate its population from an economic free-for-all with the rest of the world - it is by definition a protectionist organisation.

Cendrillon Yep that answers my questions.

If you’d care to actually make an argument, you could try to answer mine. Or you can just say whatever makes you feel good and righteous, it’s really up to you.

I couldn't agree with Hester more.
I've lived in a very unequal society and closer to the top than the bottom.
Superficially it was a very pleasant life, huge house, live in staff, fantastic facilities and lovely restaurants.
But the housing complex needed gates and guards. DC's LEGO models of their houses included armed guards in the streets and security cameras on the houses.
The school was gated with armed guards.
In a society with no opportunity for all everyone suffers, even the ones with everything. They lose safety, security, corruption is much harder to tackle, the police and courts don't offer equal justice.
The best people for jobs don't get the jobs they should so things aren't done as well as they should be. This impacts growth and productivity on all levels of society.
A decent level of healthcare, education and a safety blanket for all is in the interests of everyone in a society.

The best people for jobs don't get the jobs they should so things aren't done as well as they should be.

And we see lazy people with mediocre skills getting the jobs .e.g. Johnson and many of his Cabinet.

Cendrillon, out of curiosity, what do you think the state should provide and tax should pay for?

DGR Absolutely, to a large extent their readership is dying off, they have the same problem as the Tory party BUT at the moment they are the ones dominating the narrative. I have no worries for ten, twenty years down the line when the 18-30 voters will be running the show. It is doubtful the Tories could run an campaign if nobody over 30 was allowed to take part. In my DDs peer group there is just one active Tory , and they won some prize for being the most promising Tory previous won by lots of “names” —that I have forgotten— which frankly suggests the competition in the talent pool was not great. Otherwise respect for minorities, the NHS, social justice and above all wanting a place in Europe and the world (which most have travelled round as never before) are alive and well, as indeed as the first generation to grow up with octogenarian grandparents they understand about social care issues as well. It is just we are going to leave them with such a shitshow to recover from. And they don’t read newspapers, not even the Guardian unless there is a particular relevant article that gets linked to them —and the guilty pleasure of an occasional ironic look at the Mail online sidebar of shame for the goss—

Our canvassing got rained off. Too soggy and shivery.

Sorry clearly my phone won’t do the strike out.....

Genuine Questions

I meant that I would be nagging him to ensure he votes. Unlike DS1, he doesn't have to bother with a postal/proxy vote, but still moans that he's so busy and doesn't have time to go and vote (which drives me mad)..

How he votes is up to him (although I make my own views very clear!). Come to think of it, he's spent his whole life doing the opposite of what I say, so may not be my best tactic.

The sad thing I find with local Tories who are mostly elderly, is that they don't question much and do not realise how far their party has lurched to the right. They ought to be asking themselves questions when people like Hammond gets kicked out, even if they were too Eurosceptic to question Clarke's defenestration.

There are a handful of young Tories around, who appear to be braying moneyed clones of each other.

Our canvassing got rained off. Too soggy and shivery.

Too bad. I must admit that the other day when I had a choice of going out delivering or writing envelopes in the Office, I chose the latter, because it was raining outside.

Do we now think that one group gets what they want and the others have to put up with ill-effects of that?

Don’t we buy in to the collective idea any more?

The idea of the collective has always been a bit suspiciously socialist slash communist for the British. Hence the demonisation of the EU who are basically too left wing for a lot of British, and the dogged pursuit of the horribly inequitable US system of health and welfare which has nothing at all to recommend it.

The resurgence of the hard right is a worldwide phenomenon, from Europe to the US, but in our case it seems to be a particular resurgence of U.K. fascistic currents that were squashed and shamed by the war.

The sad thing I find with local Tories who are mostly elderly, is that they don't question much and do not realise how far their party has lurched to the right. They ought to be asking themselves questions when people like Hammond gets kicked out, even if they were too Eurosceptic to question Clarke's defenestration.

Interesting. All the Tory friends of my parents (who are 82 thus ‘elderly’) are Clark, Major, Heseltine fans who think the party’s gone mad. But they’re essentially London people and I think that makes a difference.

I’m surprised that Tories are doing as well in the polls as they are because I don’t really know anyone who would (admit to) voting Tory any more. Even one of my sister’s ghastly Shire Tory husband is voting LD.

"a key purpose of the EU is to insulate its population from an economic free-for-all with the rest of the world - it is by definition a protectionist organisation."

This is of course correct, but it is still less protectionist (at the moment, much less) than the US, which is why it finds it easier to agree FTAs.

The single market is of course the ultimate in the removal of protectionism at the regional level, which is actually the reason the left doesn't like it - because the EU's level playing field measures preclude some protectionist measures by national governments such as unfair state aid.

"If you are a former Labour supporter what draws you to the Tories now? "

Dusty, I'm not in the least attracted to the Tories! I think you'd have to read my post quite narrowly to get that impression.

However I do think that the behaviour of some Tory MPs in this most recent parliament and certainly since Johnson came to power has been admirable, courageous and honorable. You can admire people while disagreeing with them, although I know this is quite an old fashioned point of view.

Nicked from another site:

As a public service here's a simple tactical voting guide as provided for me by a LibDem friend:-

If LDs came 1st last time - Vote LD to keep it LD

If LDs came 2nd last time - Vote LD tactically to elect a LD

If LDs came a close 3rd last time - Vote LD tactically as things have changed and only the LDs can win here

If LDs came a distant 3rd last time - Vote LD tactically as things have changed and only the LDs can win here, no really look ... bar-chart!

If LDs came a hopeless 4th last time - Vote LD tactically as only the LDs can end political tribalism

If LDs lost their deposit last time - Vote LD so they can build for the future

If the LD aren't even standing - Spoil your ballot paper with "Vote LD!" and a call for electoral reform.

Placemarking

"But they’re essentially London people and I think that makes a difference."

Yes. I'll be very curious to see how far the London/Oxford/Cambridge "halo" extends in this regard.

After a small name-change, I have finally caught up just reading these great threads. I get so much thoughtful information from them, they're still my go-to source of info on all things Brexit. Many thanks to all the regulars especially RTB, BCF, DGR, pretty, pretzels and far too many more to mention.

Someone up-thread posted a link to the Led By Donkeys book. I bought 3 for Christmas, thanks to poster on a previous thread. I recommend it!

I might buy one or two copies of the Irish Border book for Christmas. If the election puts me in a really bad mood I might even send one to my dad