Westminstenders: The end of tribalism

[RedToothBrush]

There are signs that traditional party alignment might well have broken.

The Tories have split, labour are pretending they have not.

The pattern so far seems to be closely following the EU. This favours a Tory majority.

A long way to go.

I am overall very pessimistic about the future of the U.K. though. The "footballisation" of politics, as embodied in the "we won get over it" mindset and some posts on here (eg Cendrillon's posts this morning, though this isn't confined to the leave side), point to a winner-takes-all future where the national interest and any sense that the government should work for all its citizens takes a back seat.

Thanks, red 💐

At every GE except 2010, iirc in the end the LDems have suffered from the 2-party squeeze

Westministenders' Abbreviations:

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eureferendumm2016/3492426-Westministenders-Abbreviation?msgid=84503730

a Deal with the EU that will move the process on without crashing out.

I have to believe that this is just bad faith party politicking, because the alternative is that you don't really understand the terms of the Johnson deal and you do seem to be reasonably well informed politically.

Johnson will have at most 5 months before he has to make a yes/no decision on a transition extension, for which there will be a hefty bill. If his party refuses to back an extension, then the U.K. will leave the EU with no trade deal on 31/12/20.

The people who take the Daily Mail seriously would vote Tory anyway. The ones who read it who aren't the typical reader know full well what they're like and what their game is...they will see through it. Hopefully. If anything, seeing the Daily Mail's desperation makes me wonder. NO! This is dangerous complacency. The Mail (and Telegraph) helps build a narrative for those comfortably off middle class voters. Time and time again I get the Mails lies quoted back at me in justification for Brexit, and Boris. If an alternative narrative was getting through to them especially concerning Boris’s incompetence, they might well be voting with their heads not their hearts. The Telegraph actually carried an explanation at the head of their front page a couple of days ago that explained all the gaffes, Rees Mogg, dodgy candidates etc as “dead cats” a deliberate Tory strategy to distract voters. It was basically a dead cat using dead cats. Most of the readership grew up in a time when if nothing else politicians were competent and cared about the good of the country including the economic good. The message that Boris ain’t it is not getting through to them .......

And that is why Bellini Thatcher was not worse than where we are now. I watched Thatcher destroy the industrial base of my city by withdrawing subsidies and increasing business rates and utility costs exponentially and rip the Proud heart out of it. It has never recovered. BUT though I don’t like what she did she had a plan to make Britain competitive in world markets. She understood global economics and trade and she re- engineered the economy and made it competitive and we have been making a living from that to this day. It may have skewed the economy in the name of ideology and done endless social damage but she was not motivated by greed and ambition or completely ignorant and uncaring about our economic interests. She fucked some businesses but she would never have said fuck business. Without any doubt the Tories are on a project of economic decline, they are going to cut the head off Thatchers golden goose and leave us pray to global capitalists.

< waves to poster, preens at being thought wise >

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/matt-hancock-islamophobia-whitesplaining-sayeeda-warsi-muslim-tory-a9196151.html

A cabinet minister has been accused of "whitesplaining" Islamophobia by a senior Muslim Tory peer
after suggesting she failed to take a "balanced approach" on the issue.
< in the spirit of "calm down, dear" >

Matt Hancock sparked a row when he claimed
other Conservatives took a "more balanced approach" to the issue of anti-Muslim hate in Tory ranks than former chairman Sayeeda Warsi.

Baroness Warsi, who was the first female Muslim to attend cabinet, has been campaigning for a full independent inquiry into Islamophobia.

Johnson will have at most 5 months before he has to make a yes/no decision on a transition extension, for which there will be a hefty bill. If his party refuses to back an extension, then the U.K. will leave the EU with no trade deal on 31/12/20.

I do understand that, and I’m about 70% sure that if Boris wins a majority he will use his unshakeable authority within the party - we Tories do love a winner, remember - to tell his backbenchers to swallow the transition extension. Mainly because he likes to be popular, and doesn’t want his term to start with a major crisis. The risk is paradoxically greater if he leads a minority government with weakened authority, as May did.

The "footballisation" of politics, as embodied in the "we won get over it" mindset and some posts on here (eg Cendrillon's posts this morning, though this isn't confined to the leave side), point to a winner-takes-all future where the national interest and any sense that the government should work for all its citizens takes a back seat.

I’m entertained by this, but come on - what political concessions would you give to conservatives if you didn’t have to, given that you seem to have strong partisan convictions yourself? Politics is a winner-takes-all game, and those who think it isn’t tend to be the ones wondering why they never win.

As I said earlier, Tories don't want or need to care about Islamophobia, because they have very few members or voters who care about it, and many who are active Islamophobes.

Almost no one who is planning to vote Tory at this election will find Hancock's comment objectionable.

Little thought experiment: Imagine if Jonathan Ashworth, the shadow health secretary, said that Margaret Hodge needed to take a more "balanced approach" to anti-semitism in the Labour Party.

Normal service has resumed, Cat and Continuity but every now and then it goes rogue!

Hasetien

Good for you to be brave enough to admit your happy to nag your own child to vote in the way you want him too

Is this common practise? Is this how people want to raise their dc

I was just saying on another thread how df was life long passionate Labour supporter, never considered voting tory. From l pool.

He of course talked politics, and if I was interested in why he voted Labour. He never ever however made me feel under pressure to vote his way. Above all else he impressed upon me to be an independent thinker, never ever allow anyone to tell you what to think and to question everything.

I'm a swing voter but I'm a leaver. I'm raising dd in the same way. To be an independent thinker even if that means she thinks differently.

Politics is a winner-takes-all game if you have FPTP.
Many countries have moved beyond that to more representative electoral models which favour cooperation and a degree of compromise.
If you think about how many people actually voted for BJ as PM, it's hard to see him as much of a winner.

given that you seem to have strong partisan convictions

What are my strong partisan convictions?

I don't belong to a party; I'm a former labour voter who finds herself in the interesting position of being more impressed by one-nation Tories and LDs; I'm in favour of compromise and competence ahead of partisan policies.

I'm certainly partisan on the remain/leave front but think a compromise is possible - probably by taking a slow route out of the EU as envisaged by the Flexit people, which would give time to ensure minimum economic damage and maximum buy-in from the electorate (with opportunities to turn the ship around if public opinion changed). I am very against the slash and burn politics of the current labour and Tory parties.

BigChocFrenzy Fri 08-Nov-19 20:40:51
I'm interested to read that Clarinova thinks it OK for the Tories to get up to all sorts of racist shit, but demands better of Labour

Were you deflecting? I don't remember posting anything about Labour's anti-Semitism yesterday - I rarely do - other posters seem to know a lot more about it than me.

If you want me to add an opinion, I do know that there is a link between Marxism and anti-Semitism. I have also heard LBC radio host Majid Nawaz quiz several Labour supporters on Zionism - the call never ends well - the Labour supporter digs a giant hole for themselves and comes across as anti-Semitic.

AuldAlliance obviously FPTP means that only one party can win, but it doesn't mean that the winning party has to behave as if the people who didn't vote for them don't matter, are "losers" who need to "suck it up". Unfortunately this view has infected the Tory party in particular (it's a bit less true but not completely untrue of Labour), with many MPs finding it perfectly acceptable for example to block constituents on social media.

Blair's Labour, for all its faults, did in many respects seek to reconcile the interests of both sides and actually I think this was even true to a certain extent of the coalition, much though I personally despise Cameron (I think Ken Clarke gets him right in the Times interview: "He had the style and presentational skills, but he could never answer the question — what does he believe in? What is he doing it for? The real answer was he was doing it because it was fun and he had risen effortlessly to the top.”)

The Mail (and Telegraph) helps build a narrative for those comfortably off middle class voters

Against a backdrop of startlingly sharp falls in circulation ...

Mail
2000: 2,353,915
2010: 2,120,347
2015: 1,688,727
2017: 1,511,357
2019: 1,246,568 (17% fall in 2 years)

Telegraph:
2000: 1,039,749
2010: 691,128
2015: 494,675
2017: 472,258
2019: 360,345 (23% fall since 2017)

Quite aside from the decline in readership, the loss of advertising revenue is problematic ... and that's before campaigns like "Stop Funding Hate" start to bite (which is easier against a backdrop of fewer advertisers).

No wonder the Telegraph is up for sale. Although given the trajectory of sales, who would buy it, except to asset strip it ?

(Not sure if those circulation figures include copies given away at transit hubs as once alleged on QI . If they do things are even more bleak.)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_newspapers_in_the_United_Kingdom_by_circulation

Did anyone catch "The Russell Howard Hour" on Thursday ? If Sky are pushing a pro-Tory, pro-Brexit message, then someone needs to tell the filthy funster. Although it was hard to disagree with him calling JRM a cunt, and capturing the shocked silence of an audience hearing aforementioned cunt on LBC.

If you want to play politics as a winner takes all game, you need the stomach to shoot the losers. That's how revolutions work.

taking a slow route out of the EU as envisaged by the Flexit people, which would give time to ensure minimum economic damage and maximum buy-in from the electorate

I’d be completely on board with this (not least because I accept Leaving only a means to an end, not a good in itself), except for one problem, namely that I can’t see how it could possibly work given the amount of polarisation in our political system in general and especially now.

How many votes would any party get next month if they stood on a slow, steady, carefully-overseen Flexit that might take the better part of a decade to do properly? I’d expect a very poor showing.

Cut out and keep ?

That's how revolutions work.

I’ll settle for confining Labour to the Opposition benches until they grow out of student leftism.

Can I interrupt the party political punch-ups ( ) to plug the excellent book by "Led By Donkeys"?
I have been giggling over the account of their attempts to put up their very first poster

www.waterstones.com/book/led-by-donkeys/ledbydonkeys/ben-stewart/9781838950194

Mistigirl.

If you are a former Labour supporter what draws you to the Tories now?

I’ve never been so repulsed by the Tories. Prior to recent times I was not interested in politics. I voted labour too but wouldn’t have even called myself a supporter.

The Tories are toxic now. I think. Please could you explain why you might vote for them.

Heard some discussion about what excuse Boris is going to use to swerve any debate with anyone in a head to head. Any guesses ?

Some sort of international crisis would be best. Normally a national one would have done, but the problem is that Boris clearly doesn't give a shit about the nation, so using that as an excuse would just trip the bullshit detectors.

Health is a tricky one, as we don't want people thinking he's "weak" in a physical sense.

Maybe a 2-hour "security scare" ?

Alternatively, work from the inside, and nobble the debate to ensure he can "bwah, bwah" over anything Corbyn says and not be pulled up on it ?

Paging LauraK, paging LauraK.

with regards to daily mail, sun, metro etc you need to realise that many many people do not read newspapers at all. however what they do read are the headlines at the shop or on public transport.

big. snappy. headlines

This tribalisation or footballisation of politics, this ’we won, you lost, suck it up’ attitude is a real tragedy.

Surely we’d ALL benefit from living in a society with no homeless folk resorting to drug use and crime, or dying on the street; where everyone can get free healthcare and public health is a priority; where all schools are well-resourced and children thriving; where the government takes a proactive view to working against the worst effects of the climate crisis; where everyone has a home to live in; where low-security zero-hours exploitative jobs are no more; and ... plenty more.

Do we no longer see that? That a healthy, happy society benefits everyone?

Do we now think that one group gets what they want and the others have to put up with ill-effects of that?

Don’t we buy in to the collective idea any more? That’s very worrying because the only way we’re going to survive as a race is by working together; not by ’othering’ people and saying they don’t deserve what we have.

Against a backdrop of startlingly sharp falls in circulation

To be fair the Guardian and the FT circulation halved in the same time frame, so it’s part of the same pattern. The Times is the one that has fared the best.

But - the average age of the Telegraph reader is about 60+ so they’re dying out naturally.