Westminstenders: The end of tribalism

[RedToothBrush]

There are signs that traditional party alignment might well have broken.

The Tories have split, labour are pretending they have not.

The pattern so far seems to be closely following the EU. This favours a Tory majority.

A long way to go.

If you are going to cut and paste, suggest you put exclamation marks around it. As for the content? Meh. Not making me support Corbyn. If anything, it tells me that the Brexshit Party are losing ground to the Tories which means I don't need to hold my nose and vote Labour to keep them out.
But as both of us are entitled to our opinion, not sure that makes a difference either way.

Or quotation marks!

I am aware that we live in our own bubbles, but I don't see Remain Tories reverting back to the party. Many loathe Johnson and will give the LibDems a go this time. That's just in my seat though.

I'm worried too Cat. Not desperate - yet because I'm clinging on to hope. But in the past I've always thought 'we'll manage' and 'it won't make THAT much difference'.

This time I think, if Boris gets in, it will yes. I have health issues - like bellin and my daughter has cerebral palsy. I'm petrified that we will be abandoned and left without care, but keep blocking that fear out - and hoping ...

I fear for what this will mean for the future of my children and like you hope we can run away if necessary.

Like NotinMyName I've always been wary of Tory tactics. But Boris really does trump them all.

How anyone cannot be fearful ... I don't know. You can think about other things. Try and pretend that politics isn't happening. That it's got nothing to do with you.

This article might be helpful:

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/nov/08/modern-politics-gripping-dont-let-it-consume-life-oliver-burkeman

I found it to be sort of helpful.

On emigrating, since we came back from our last big adventure living overseas (with children for whom it was a hugely formative experience) my initial impression that a lot of people in the U.K. were very grumpy and angry that their sense of entitlement was not being met, and that made everyday life much more stressful than it had been elsewhere, has turned into the shitshow we are in now. They were already angry but what had been expressed in road rage, grumpy customer service, sexist behaviour or low level racism etc. found a focus in 2016. We have already half relocated and I am only here as a result of being needed by a millennial. It’s a lot cheaper to live in other parts of the world, it can be a daily adventure, there are challenges but it can also be a lot easier, and in spite of much worse political conditions people are actually happier and easier to live amongst. We are at a stage where we can retire, and work only as a luxury though. However the expat community is very diverse in age and origin, plenty of exiles from Trumps America too. It can be a personal reboot, rather than a difficult experience.

many/most of those MPs, especially on the Tory ranks, have been chased out

Some have but not the ERG who were actually the main rebels on the Tory side. And the new intake will not all be yes-men.

Having two leaders who regularly defied the whip has changed things I think, if not permanently then for the time being. This is not a favourable environment for party discipline and it means that a government with a small majority can no longer be confident of getting legislation through.

Of course that doesn't matter if the tories win a big majority but it could be important if their majority is small. This is one BIG reason why people shouldn't give up as the size of an eventual Tory majority is still to play for and it matters a LOT.

Have manifestos been published yet ? (And is there any point anyway ?)

I'd be curious to see exactly how the Tory one deals with Brexit ... especially if it's promised in the same way as all the other Tory promises. And that's before we start listing all the promises that Boris hasn't kept thus far.

A no, or small majority Tory government might be the death knell for Brexit anyway. The second successive election that has failed to deliver a government capable of enacting Brexit is a clear message ... that a bit more civics in schools might be a good idea if nothing else.

Keith Vaz standing down ...

Thanks for your last post @JustAnotherPoster00

Heartening

What do you think of this? I can't tell if it's a really shit idea or whether I'm blocking out quite a good one.

"Quite frankly this really shouldn’t be up to the government, if parents took responsibility for educating their own children it wouldn’t be such a massive burden on the tax payer. Means tested contributions are the way forwards so that those who can afford to pay don’t get a free ride and children of poor parents don’t suffer."

It comes from this thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3739292-Tories-to-continue-to-run-schools-into-the-ground?watched=1&msgid=91497651#91497651

If you are going to cut and paste, suggest you put exclamation marks around it.

Why?

Does anyone here think I'm Aaron Bastani?

It's annoying when people C&P large sections of articles, quite apart from any copyright issues. Much better to paste extracts and to comment on them!

I suspect most people will just scroll past anything longer than 3-4 paragraphs unless it's original and well written.

Probably not. But I only realised it was a cut and paste when I saw how long it was going to be reading it. I did you the courtesy of reading it because I was waiting for my porridge to cook.

I suspect most people will just scroll past anything longer than 3-4 paragraphs unless it's original and well written.

[shrug]

I can't tell if it's a really shit idea or whether I'm blocking out quite a good one.

It's how they do it in the least developed countries.

I suppose it depends if you want a productive economy or not ~shrugs~.

Britain really is heading back to the 1800s if this is how people really think. Mumsnet has quite an active community of very hard-right empathy-light libertarians, though, who I suspect are not very representative of people in general.

Thank you bellini

I only post things like that because its a side of the debate that not necessarily everyone gets, even if it makes people vote differently to me at least they know both sides

I'm clinging to the memory of May polling what was expected to be a 100+ majority in spring 2017.

I am too. I refuse to be despondent now with another four and a bit weeks to go. A huge amount can happen in that time, as I write our Labour and Green candidates have yet to be announced.

Well Just. I found the Aaron Bastani piece very interesting, thank you for bringing it. And well done, you have had a lot of stick lately but I think you have been very tempered in your responses.

Opinium has her behind Jeremy Corbyn on a bunch of absurd, but perhaps insightful, questions such as “Who would you rather take part in Celebrity Gogglebox with?” Corbyn also does better than Nigel Farage on most of these questions, although he’s some way behind Boris Johnson.

I'm still wondering how Boris is going to swerve actually going head to head with Corbyn, unless he has nobbled the adjudicator and platform first ? Because I can't see any debate ending well for Boris. Who has conspicuously avoided PMQs where he can and has never had a grasp of detail.

After all, Theresa May ducked out of hers - and sent Amber Rudd.

I'm picturing the debate beginning, and the adjudicator stopping it, to take a call from "Donald, in Washington" who proceeds to tell us how great Boris is, and how we should like, all get behind Boris. I can even imagine Chics "Good Times" playing in the background.

I think my meds may need changing.

Also, British Steel "saved" by Chinese firm ...

Britain really is heading back to the 1800s if this is how people really think. Mumsnet has quite an active community of very hard-right empathy-light libertarians, though, who I suspect are not very representative of people in general.

I did ask Cendrillon what they think the state should pay for/ would be happy to pay tax for and I got no response.

I don't know why people who have lots of money want even more money. You can only be in one room at a time, wear one set of clothing at a time, and eat enough to be full.

Yes, I would like to live in a slightly bigger home or remodel the one I have (might be able to do that in a few years) and visit friends and family a bit more than I do now. But other than that, what is it for? To buy more stuff? Surely millionaires have all the stuff they need? I see threads on here about Christmas, asking what to buy for people who have everything they want/need, granted for a smallish budget. I have people to buy for that have everything they want/need within my budget, and I don't think I know any millionaires (maybe one or two asset ones due to Dublin property prices) with fairly modest incomes.

What is all the money for?

Just

The reason for making it absolutely clear you're cut and pasting is embedded in the founding of these threads.

They started after the experience of being on MN during the Referendum campaign.

We were inundated with Brexit trolls. And they had a style, which could be summed up as fake news and word salad.

Red, in particular, would discuss why and how that was so corrosive to democracy and communication.

She suggested a style of posting in opposition to that. You'll notice she holds to that (though I admit I slip ): name your source; give information as to where it can be found - so that it can be verified by readers; ideally, give context (who this is, what is their status as regards verifiable truth); and Red often adds analysis, clearly separated and identifiable as such.

It all matters.

The style of those Brexit trolls was aimed at mixing truth and lies, until people were too weary to care which was which. And once that happens, political truth-based communication - which is a hugely important base of democratic politics - is utterly corrupted.

If the democratic populace is forced, cajoled or coerced into abandoning that base of democracy, the space is left for the enemies of democracy.

So, anyway, that's the thinking behind it and why some of us think it matters.

(I do wish we had taken some of Red's words on this and used them as a sticky. They were so thought-provoking. For me, anyway.)

Tactical voting sites are all hot air until after the nominations close.
Only then will we have real numbers to play with.

And the polling data (as DGRosetti has repeatedly pointed out
is very weak due to problems with sampling).

CHILLAX FOLKS its still all to play for

So after all the chat about how disheveled Boris was yesterday, it appeard the BBC used footage of him from the 2016 service in reporting
Conspiracy or cock-up?
evolvepolitics.com/bbc-accused-of-covering-up-boris-johnson-remembrance-day-gaffe-by-using-2016-footage/

Thank you for posting the Burkeman column link www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/nov/08/modern-politics-gripping-dont-let-it-consume-life-oliver-burkeman, that was a useful read for me. Also the www.network.vote/ get out the vote link. I have tweeted and put the latter up on FB.

But I think I am going to step away from these threads and from social media and the news for a while. My mental health is suffering and I'm heading for a dark place if I don't cut off the politics. Good luck and best wishes to you all.