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Brexit

Westminstenders: The end of tribalism

961 replies

RedToothBrush · 09/11/2019 00:55

There are signs that traditional party alignment might well have broken.

The Tories have split, labour are pretending they have not.

The pattern so far seems to be closely following the EU. This favours a Tory majority.

A long way to go.

OP posts:
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GaspodeWonderCat · 11/11/2019 00:52

Butterymuffin me too.

Apileofballyhoo · 11/11/2019 00:54

cat don't forget the common travel area with Ireland gives British citizens the right to live and work here regardless of EU/Irish citizenship or lack thereof. Flowers

borntobequiet · 11/11/2019 05:15

I still don’t believe the polls if they predict a Conservative win. I can’t credit that what seems to be a specific revulsion against BJ in particular - from so many - and the Conservative party in general could possibly translate to a huge majority or indeed any majority at all.

bellinisurge · 11/11/2019 06:14

@thecatfromjapan I don't get why you are in terror but it obviously you feel how you feel. This idea you have of "leaving". Where to? Having lived and worked abroad for most of my twenties I can say, you still need to pay your bills, you still need to get your blocked toilet fixed or whatever. Doing this without a support network of friends and family and in a different language and culture is really hard.
If you are so passionately devoted to being able n London, I can't see you moving out to another part of the UK, let alone another country.
You should try and work in turning your fear on its head. And, dare I suggest, talk to a medical professional about it.
I entirely accept too that you won't take any of this from me. In the short term, why not cone off MN because it is upsetting you.
I genuinely have my own serious shit - I have MS.

Songsofexperience · 11/11/2019 06:32

I second what bellini said. I would also add that unless you can afford to move somewhere and then look for a job (and feel confident that you can get a job within those few months) or have a cast iron business plan, finding a suitable position from afar is really hard. Basically, unless your employer is willing to transfer you elsewhere, emigrating is difficult to achieve in the first place. Then all those other factors bellini mentioned come into play.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 11/11/2019 06:47

Corbyn will be stubborn and refuse to compromise. It will be something like he'll only join forces if he can be leader

And rightly so

Mistigri · 11/11/2019 06:52

I feel that I know enough about him now to be pretty certain that if there are numbers to form a government in order to keep the Conservatives out (sorry I don't know the best way of wording this)that Corbyn will be stubborn and refuse to compromise. It will be something like he'll only join forces if he can be leader - and none of the other parties will want him to be - and so we'll end up with Boris.

If there is no overall majority, then it is hard to see any party wanting to form a formal coalition and get Clegged, so a minority govt will have to make a choice between compromise and another election.

In this case we'll end up like Spain (another country with intractable nationalism problems). They've had four elections in four years and my first reaction to yesterday's results is that there is no reason why they can't make it five in five years.

Even if there is a small Tory majority I think that this might happen, because MPs have got a taste for voting against the whip.

Mistigri · 11/11/2019 06:59

Re leaving the U.K., it is a different kettle of fish if you have a London/SE property you can rent out or sell. I don't know if this is the case for cat, but many Britons in Europe live off property income usually supplemented by low wage self employment.

Mistigri · 11/11/2019 07:05

And finally, while we're all bickering over tactical voting, the best way of avoiding a Tory majority is being ignored.

This site has materials that can be used to help encourage people to register to vote and to turn out on the 12th:

www.network.vote/

redchocolatebutton · 11/11/2019 07:07

wrt leaving uk.
we moved to forrin recently and totting up the removal costs was easily 20k.
and that's with a secure job to go to.

thecatfromjapan · 11/11/2019 07:16

The worry is a result of encountering the radicalised, full-of-abstract-hate 'voter', bellini. ☹️

I find MN quite calming - as a rule.

Anyway, this was a longer post but it'll keep for now.

I would say that my encounter with him brought home what RedToothBrush and BigChoc say all the time: the tolerant, liberal centre is worth fighting for. The content of that liberal centre is plural & may be in conflict - but its defining characteristic of recognising the value of 'the communicative other' is precious.

I used to question that model of the liberal centre - I regarded it as a prison for some and as a fortress of exclusion for others.

And I still do question it.

But I think having now experienced the stresses under which that liberal model operates & it's alternatives, my critique understands viscerally the value of that centre - in a way my younger self could not have imagined.

Mistigri · 11/11/2019 07:16

You only spent £20k because you had a job to go to, though. If you were leaving the U.K. on a small budget you wouldn't do it that way.

redchocolatebutton · 11/11/2019 07:22

tbh the removal itself was paid for by the employer, which helps immensely. but that still leaves a rental deposit, setting up utilities, translator for official stuff, school stuff for dc...all those things add up.

thecatfromjapan · 11/11/2019 07:30

I know all that. 😁 Lots of my extended family have lived across Europe for many years. I've watched as they've aged and encountered the issues of navigating elderly care - it's not easy!

Hence my feeling of surprise to catch myself seriously considering it for the first time. And then dismissing it. But ...

If nothing else, the experience has (re-) awakened a profound sympathy for migrants. It takes a lot to shift you from the place you are embedded, settled like a warm stone among networks of family, friends, language & understanding, to travel in hope of better. 🤷‍♀️

QuentinWinters · 11/11/2019 07:31

Cat here is a song for you

I also hate what this country is becoming. Make Britain great again my arse

thecatfromjapan · 11/11/2019 07:38

Anyway, repeating Misti's link:

go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=www.network.vote/

This is one for posting on Facebook or Twitter, if you are connected in those ways.

The youth vote, and the transient renter vote can easily fall through the cracks in a snap election. And it's all coming up far quicker than people think - postal votes start next week, I think.
This tool is aimed at those folks - & they are an important constituency.

thecatfromjapan · 11/11/2019 07:45

OMG,Quentin.

💐💐💐💐💐

It even had the Elephant & Castle shopping centre in it!! 😁

💐💐💐💐💐

mathanxiety · 11/11/2019 07:56

pmk, very late...

Peregrina · 11/11/2019 08:08

Even if there is a small Tory majority I think that this might happen, because MPs have got a taste for voting against the whip.

That was the current Parliament, but many/most of those MPs, especially on the Tory ranks, have been chased out. Look at the long list who are not standing again - not your Ken Clarke's who were due to retire anyway - but Rory Stewart, Ed Vaizey, Justine Greening - who are all still young enough to have had many years of a political career ahead of them still. That was just three names off the top of my head. At the last election, I would not have been able to think of any such names.

Or again Dominic Grieve fighting for his political life - something which would have been unheard of 10 years ago.

QuentinWinters · 11/11/2019 08:15

I think it's a great song....

thecatfromjapan · 11/11/2019 08:19

It is , Quentin. Thank you for introducing me to it. 🙂

HeyNotInMyName · 11/11/2019 08:25

thecat I get your fear.
Because I have the same fear/terror. maybe this is because I have been feeling extremely uneasy with the Tories tactics for much longer than a lot of people (I have been having doubts about their far right extremist way before the referendum). Maybe I’m catrastrophising things. Or I was because I’m pretty sure I’m not anymore!
That means that the idea of moving has been in my mind for years now. Except I can’t because I have two dcs right in the middle of their GCSE and A levels so that’s the worst time ever for them to move to a foreign country. So I’m sitting tight whilst still having researched what my options are and knowing that I can and will move if things reach a certain threshold.
I dint think it’s a bad idea tbh. Just like it’s not a bad idea to have 3 months worth of savings ‘just in case’. It doesn’t mean you are ever going to use it. But having it make me feel safer. Knowing what I could do if I need to move is also giving some sense of safety.

Tanith · 11/11/2019 09:12

Led By Donkeys has raised 81% of its crowdfunder target with 16 days to go.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 11/11/2019 09:18

Morning all, Aaron Bastani here with the first ever 'It’ll Go Higher?', a weekly newsletter where I cast a sociological side-eye on predictions, polls and punditry between now and election day. You’ll hear plenty of hot takes on what the polling apparently means between now and 12 December, but this newsletter aims to dig a little deeper, get beneath the surface and isolate trends ahead of time.

"But are polls even worth engaging with?" I hear you silently cry.

Yes and no, because despite claims that all the pollsters called the last general election wrong, that isn’t entirely true. YouGov adopted a system based on predictive modelling (a technique used extensively by Barack Obama but which the Observer thinks is as Russian as Chekhov) and massive amounts of data (50,000 respondents a time). That allowed them to predict a hung parliament…until they changed their system from MRP because they didn’t want to stand out from the crowd (showing that even pollsters can exhibit ‘bandwagoning bias’). Survation had a bit more backbone, however, and, sticking with the same methodology throughout the campaign, they called the final results almost perfectly - putting Labour on 40% and the Tories on 41% the day before the vote. In the final weeks of campaigning I said Survation were the most likely pollster to be accurate. Unlike Dan Hodges I was right.

Labour edgding...higher?

It’s important to emphasise that at this early stage the polls being published are less ‘robust’ than those available in the final weeks of 2017. Polling conducted by Deltapoll and Opinium over the weekend, both of which showed Labour inching up but remaining significantly behind the Tories, had smaller samples with people responding online (which is generally viewed as weaker data than that collected face-to-face and over the telephone). Nevertheless, with 1500 and 2000 respondents respectively, their findings on headline voting intention should be taken seriously.

Importantly, when you put their findings into broader context, especially compared to Labour’s support around the time of May’s European elections, deeper trends become conspicuous. There is no doubt Labour have significantly stabilised in the last few months: Opinium claim that 66% of Labour leavers now intend to vote for the party, up nine points from last week; while 48% of Labour remainers plan on voting Labour – up 10 points. While still nowhere enough to form a government, that is welcome. And the parties suffering as a result? The Brexit party and Liberal Democrats.

Until as recently as September, Opinium had Labour behind the Brexit party among leave voters and trailing the Lib Dems among remainers. Having edged ahead of both, only surpassing the former last week, they have done something of vital importance in the first week of campaigning: consolidated their base on both sides of the Brexit debate - no mean feat and a testament to the party’s post-conference position on a second referendum.

Jo Swinson is REALLY unpopular.

Despite only being leader of her party since June, Jo Swinson is surprisingly unpopular. Like, really unpopular.

Opinium has her behind Jeremy Corbyn on a bunch of absurd, but perhaps insightful, questions such as “Who would you rather take part in Celebrity Gogglebox with?” Corbyn also does better than Nigel Farage on most of these questions, although he’s some way behind Boris Johnson. Yet even this is somewhat surprising. After all, Corbyn and Farage have well-established political brands and are undoubtedly polarising figures. And yet both are generally viewed as more affable than Swinson, a person whose whole schtick is being an agreeable ‘moderate’. To put it bluntly, since she’s become leader the public has rapidly decided what they think of her - and it ain’t good. That could a major problem for the Liberal Democrats who now seem intent on building their campaign around the East Dunbartonshire MP.

Less apparent, but also of interest, is how Nigel Farage has seen his approval ratings suffer of late. Only 37% of leave voters approve of Mr Toad compared to 50% a month ago. It’s likely that his decision to not stand as a candidate in the forthcoming election is a major reason why - something raised while he campaigned in Wales last week. Between Labour’s ground campaign and Boris’s Brexit belligerence, it is increasingly difficult to see how the Brexit party can win any seats. Of course it’s early days - but one suspects Farage knows this and doesn’t want to be personally humiliated come election day.

The Remain ‘Alliance’ Ain’t Working

While Labour edges up, the opposite is happening to the Lib Dems, Greens and Plaid Cymru (the last of which Deltapoll puts on 0%). Of particular interest is how Swinson’s party is failing to pick up many ‘soft Tories’ - the people who may have voted Lib Dem in 2010 but powered David Cameron to a majority five years later.

Attracting these individuals is at the heart of Swinson’s rationale in attacking Labour so relentlessly. Last weekend’s findings indicate that, after a fruitful six months, this is no longer working. According to Opinium, 54% of those who voted Conservative in 2017 and favour remain are sticking with Boris Johnson. That’s the kind of figure that could decide the next election, and is generally being neglected by the media.

So one week in, here’s what we know:

Labour is stabilising at the cost of smaller parties, while the Tories - predictably - pick up the lion’s share of the leave vote from a flailing Brexit party.

Intriguingly, the public dislikes Farage and Swinson as much, if not more, than Jeremy Corbyn, and despite the media’s often-contrarian reporting it’s almost certain the big two will see their vote share continue to grow at the expense of the others over the next few weeks

Meanwhile, the early signs of the Lib Dem-Green-Plaid pact is that all are suffering as a result.

prettybird · 11/11/2019 09:29

Not sure if this has been posted (from a few days ago): Dominic Grieve tells people to stop contributing to his crowd fund campaign as he'd already realised more than enough through it! ShockGrin I hadn't even got round to donating my £10 Wink

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/dominic-grieve-general-election-campaign-fund-1-6366425

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