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Brexit

Westminstenders: The end of tribalism

961 replies

RedToothBrush · 09/11/2019 00:55

There are signs that traditional party alignment might well have broken.

The Tories have split, labour are pretending they have not.

The pattern so far seems to be closely following the EU. This favours a Tory majority.

A long way to go.

OP posts:
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32
Mistigri · 10/11/2019 13:10

usually an insult is designed to cause offence

I admit that I only skimmed the thread (because I have been working and now I'm going to the gym) but people seemed to be reacting "ok boomer" as an ageist insult and that seems pretty thin-skinned to me.

(I'll be back in a bit with some poorly-typed and probably slightly grumpy posts while I sit on an exercise bike rehabilitating my dodgy boomer knees).

TatianaLarina · 10/11/2019 13:10

As Jonathan Freedland set out the dilemma for British Jews wrt Labour in his article yesterday:

Britain’s Jews who, for the first time in their history, have concluded that someone hostile to them is on the brink of taking democratic power.

For four years, Britain’s Jews have – naively, perhaps – waited for the moment when one of these revelations would prove too much for the Labour faithful, shocking them into action. Perhaps it would be the discovery that, despite evidence against hundreds of party members – including those trafficking in grotesque neo-Nazi imagery and Holocaust denial – only a handful have actually been expelled. Or maybe it would be the BBC Panorama investigation that showed how Corbyn’s team repeatedly interfered in antisemitism cases as they went through a supposedly independent disciplinary process, “mainly so they could let their mates off the charge”, as one whistleblower, driven to the brink of suicide, put it. Or perhaps it would be the fact that Labour has become only the second political party ever to be investigated for institutional racism by the Equalities and Human Rights Commission (the other was the BNP).

But no. No revelation has ever proved shocking enough that it couldn’t be explained away by those who’d rather not see it. So publicly Labour’s luminaries insist they are fighting a “ruthless” fight against antisemitism, doing all the Jewish community has asked of them, as John McDonnell said this week, even though the facts point the other way.

We’re meant to cheer that Chris Williamson has been barred from standing again as an MP. But Jews remember that, even when Williamson’s penchant for egregious Jew-baiting was well known, Corbyn was still praising him. Just a few months ago, in fact, Corbyn called him “a very good, very effective Labour MP. He’s a very strong anti-racist campaigner. He is not antisemitic in any way.”

None of this has stopped. Labour’s crop of prospective parliamentary candidates has included several with a documented history of anti-Jewish bigotry, Twitter back-catalogues playing on all the familiar tunes of Jewish conspiracy, greed and the rest of it. Two candidates were forced to step down on Thursday, one for calling a Jewish fellow councillor “Shylock”. It suggests this is no longer a problem of one man, but that the malaise is now institutional.

And yet Labour’s high command could soon be governing the country. Labour doesn’t even need to win many seats; Johnson needs only to fail to win a majority and Corbyn will be closing in on Downing Street. What should Jewish voters and those appalled by anti-Jewish racism do about that?

But that the question is even in the air, that someone who sees Jews as not quite “us” – “they don’t understand English irony” – is deemed eligible to be prime minister, makes our presence here feel conditional and shaky. And, whether Corbyn makes it to Downing Street or not, to realise that the historic party of social justice in this country finds a little bit of racism acceptable for the sake of the larger cause, and that many millions of voters agree – well, that realisation contains its own heartbreak. It means that what we thought about this country wasn’t quite true.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/09/jews-brexit-boris-johnson-jeremy-corbyn

ArseDarkly · 10/11/2019 13:11

In a Jewish News poll 25% of British Jews are set to vote for the LD – 4 x as many as in 2017.

They probably voted Tory in 2017, not Labour.

TatianaLarina · 10/11/2019 13:11

No 1 here has denied it,

Minimising is denial.

TatianaLarina · 10/11/2019 13:14

Word of warning to those who have seen statistics saying 87% of British Jews think Corbyn is an antisemite, and 47% would consider emigrating if he became PM... the questions were put to just 0.28% of the Jewish community.

If you read my post I specified ‘in a Jewish News’ poll’, I did not claim that it was 87% of British Jews.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 10/11/2019 13:14

Jonathon Freedland the man who in his haste to slate Labour libeled and innocent ppc as an anti semite?

Jonathan Cook
@JonathanKCook
Eager to smear Corbyn's Labour party yet again, the Guardian's Jonathan Freedland threw aside journalistic caution and wrongly accused a Muslim candidate of antisemitism. He relied on a 'Labour source', 'reliable' only in the sense of sharing Freedland's antipathy for Corbyn
Quote Tweet

Jonathan Freedland
@Freedland
· Nov 8
Labour tell me that earlier reports of a candidate shortlisted in Birmingham Hall Green rested on a confusion about two men with the same name. The Majid Mahmood shortlisted for the seat is NOT the Majid Mahmood fined over comments on Facebook – and I’ve deleted those tweets
Show this thread

ArseDarkly · 10/11/2019 13:15

Also, I find the use of 'deniers' wrt anti-semitism really poor. Holocaust Denial is a crime and the word should not be co-opted to score points elsewhere

MockersthefeMANist · 10/11/2019 13:15

The "Shylock" guy 'did not know Shylock was Jewish...'

And Corbyn did not think the mural of hook-nosed bankers in top hats was anti-semitic, until someone explained it to him.

TheABC · 10/11/2019 13:15

Moving away from anti-Semitism and Islamaphobia (which is a problem, both in our political parties and general society), I am struck by the topics coming up.

-NHS
-Brexit
-Trade

  • Climate change (ish)

Nothing about schools or university tuition fees. Nothing about housing. Nothing about police or the armed forces. It still feels like every soundbite is aimed at the over-40s. I understand why that is the case with the Tories, but not with the other parties.

MockersthefeMANist · 10/11/2019 13:18

Holocaust Denial is a crime

only in Germany.

And what we have today is known as revisionist denial. Not the self-evidently absurd crude denial of old, but lots of nitpicking: Was it that many? Was that so bad in the overall context of the war? What about Slavery? What about Famine in India? What about the Sonderkommandos? Hitler was a Zionist. Etc.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 10/11/2019 13:18

If I'm honest though I dont care if people like Corbyn or not its about the policies and its always interesting to see that Tories and Libdems (that double act known for austerity and the causes of Brexit) always focus on Corbyn and not policy because they know without Brexit and scary Corbyn they have nothing

DGRossetti · 10/11/2019 13:22

Also, I find the use of 'deniers' wrt anti-semitism really poor. Holocaust Denial is a crime

Not in the UK, thankfully.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 10/11/2019 13:22

Also interesting that the LibDems seem happy to ignore the Islamaphobia in the Tory party but take the Tory attack line on Corbyn and AS Hmm

bellinisurge · 10/11/2019 13:24

Not everyone is affiliated to a party.

TheMShip · 10/11/2019 13:24

Nothing about housing.

This is what I want to hear about. I want RTB ended. I want a massive injection of investment to councils to build social rent housing, from three and four bed terraces for families, one and two bed starter flats for singles and couples, through to sheltered accommodation blocks for retirees with on site wardens. Targets should be based on the current waiting list numbers, with harsh penalties for NIMBY councils that don't build. Investment should include money for all the other needed infrastructure, schools, roads, health clinics, etc.

ArseDarkly · 10/11/2019 13:25

And what we have today is known as revisionist denial

Not by me it isn't

ArseDarkly · 10/11/2019 13:26

Looks like Johnson might not be off the hook with the IOPC/Arcuris allegations after all..

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-jennifer-arcuri-relationship-investigation-general-election-watchdog-a9197136.html

DGRossetti · 10/11/2019 13:28

Islamaphobia in the Tory party

Is probably going to pull in more votes than it loses.

Icantreachthepretzels · 10/11/2019 13:28

I want RTB ended

Well - that's an unfortunate acronym on these threads. Blimey! Grin

JustAnotherPoster00 · 10/11/2019 13:28

Is probably going to pull in more votes than it loses.

Youre probably right

TatianaLarina · 10/11/2019 13:29

Jonathon Freedland the man who in his haste to slate Labour libeled and innocent ppc as an anti semite?

The man who mistook two people of the same name, one of whom had been fined for comments on FB.

If you’re hoping that devalidates his POV you’re wrong.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 10/11/2019 13:30

I want RTB ended

Poor Red after all she does for us, some of you are heartless Grin

MockersthefeMANist · 10/11/2019 13:31

I'm giving you the historians' perspective. Crude denial remains popular in the Arab world: It never happened, it's all lies. As the Hamas Charter says:

They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it.

Revisionist holocause denial is a product of the European postwar far right, notably David Irving with his 'Those were just showers, not gas chambers, and the ovens were ordinary crematoriums...'

JustAnotherPoster00 · 10/11/2019 13:31

The man who mistook two people of the same name, one of whom had been fined for comments on FB.

Oh thats ok then Hmm

DGRossetti · 10/11/2019 13:33

Revisionist holocause denial is a product of the European postwar far right, notably David Irving with his 'Those were just showers, not gas chambers, and the ovens were ordinary crematoriums...'

Has anyone on these threads - or MN in general - supported such views ?