Westminstenders: The end of tribalism

[RedToothBrush]

There are signs that traditional party alignment might well have broken.

The Tories have split, labour are pretending they have not.

The pattern so far seems to be closely following the EU. This favours a Tory majority.

A long way to go.

So the Tory party are reviving large donations from the Russians, Boris Johnson has close links with some dubious Russian characters, they have suppressed an ISC report highlighting all this and yet still the media think that Jeremy Corbyn is a threat to national security

This thread gets heated occasionally. Time for a reality check
www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/a-guide-to-tory-spending-vs-labour-spending-20191108190582
(Yes I know I’m shallow)

Oakenbeach The problem I have is that the LDs seem to be extreme too with revoke with no referendum

Not getting back into the self id stuff again, but just to remind you that LD official policy is revoke if they get a majority which will not happen, and to support a second referendum otherwise.

Universal credit
Now we have proof: the government used your money to lie about poor people

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/06/government-universal-credit-deception-asa-taxpayer-funded-features?CMP=share_btn_fb

yet still the media think that Jeremy Corbyn is a threat to national security

Not only that, but it’s Remainers (who want to save the country from economic disaster) who are the ‘traitors’, not the people who want to sell off the UK to the highest bidding foreign power

'Shallowness' is underrated, Born.
It's warm, inclusive, you can test things and teach things, it's a place of safety (massively underrated quality): we all need a bit of that.
🙂

Not getting back into the self id stuff again, but just to remind you that LD official policy is revoke if they get a majority which will not happen, and to support a second referendum otherwise.

I’m aware of that, but their position does revoke position does belie an apparent contempt for those who voted leave, and the fact they believe, even if it is only theoretical, that a majority won from, say, 35% or so of the vote should be able to override a referendum won by 52% shows a certain disregard for democratic principles.

The problem I have is that the LDs seem to be extreme too with revoke with no referendum and all this self-ID toxicity.

MShip beat me to it - their policy is revoke if they are in a position to form a Government, which is at best unlikely, and PV otherwise, which is much more of a possibility, if there has to be some C&S agreement with a Labour led minority Govt.

As for the self-ID, most of the parties have gone down this route although not the Brexit party. As for the Tories - I don't think they have either, but their Government will be one for the wealthy few, not the many, and it will be misery for the majority, regardless of how we identify ourselves.

Thanks cat.
I do find it hard to get wound up about politicians doing what politicians do. I also believe that most are doing what they genuinely believe to be the right thing (even if I think they’re massively deluded or just plain stupid). I think Corbyn is one of these and even the reality-challenged Swinson. OTOH I think BJ is something else entirely, and not anything remotely good.

I'm no LDem fan, but I find their policy of Revoke perfectly OK
(Of course they won't win, so in rl they'd have to support someone's else's policy)

Britain has a Parliamentary system of govt, not rule by referendums

In fact, the one way to kill off the Brexit saga would be if BJ as PM just Revoked - unlike May he could probably kill Leave stone dead, permanently.
Of course won't happen, as he has no inducement to do so

Already a few BXP-Tory pacts at local level

Richard Moss@BBCRichardMoss

There are multiple Labour-held seats in the North East where the Conservatives ate still to name candidates including Brexit Party top target Hartlepool.
Is a pact still possible?

I know Brexit Party not standing against Tory Brexiteers in Berwick and Middlesbrough South.

I’m aware of that, but their position does revoke position does belie an apparent contempt for those who voted leave, and the fact they believe, even if it is only theoretical, that a majority won from, say, 35% or so of the vote should be able to override a referendum won by 52% shows a certain disregard for democratic principles.

I have to disagree with this. It begs the question of how long the mandate from the Referendum lasts. We had a GE in 2017 and the party which caused a slender win for an undefined Brexit lost its majority. We have a Parliamentary democracy - for how long/how many elections are we going to say that the results of advisory referendums trump the result of a GE?

The same can be said of Johnson attempting to spin the Parliament vs the People line. Those MPs 'thwarting the will of the people' are the ones the people returned after the referendum. If they returned Remainers it has to be assumed that this was what they preferred.

Shall we gloss over the behaviour of Johnson, Rees-Mogg and Co who thwarted a May departure by note voting for May's deal?

Rachel Sylvester@RSylvesterTimes

“I am a natural Conservative but at the moment the party has gone so right-wing I shall probably hesitate a bit,

I’ll make my mind up the night before”

@aliceTTimes and I interview Ken Clarke about why he might vote Lib Dem and how he’s never been online

Ken Clarke interview: I get death threats occasionally but people have to write to me

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/saturday-interview-ken-clarke-q2t8v0qm2

The veteran Conservative and Father of the House has never been online
and leaves modern, polarised politics worried for the future

If JoJo wins a majority in the election, she has a mandate from the people to throw the referendum in the bin.

This is, of course, impossible. Just like Cleggers' promise on tuition fees, which was also dependent on a majority.

More detail about the UK's ratings downgrade last Friday:

Ed Conway@EdConwaySky

Credit ratings agency Moody’s changes outlook on UK’s (Aa2) rating from stable to negative.

Pretty damning release says Brexit has been a catalyst in an “erosion in institutional strength” which is now seriously undermining faith in the UK.

More here:

I'm ok with the Lib Dem policy to revoke if they win a majority. It's honest. It leaves people in no doubt what they are voting for. They are also continuing to campaign for a second referendum alongside this, as the pragmatic approach - with people knowing that if we obtained one, they would continue to campaign for remaining in the EU.

I’m aware of that, but their position does revoke position does belie an apparent contempt for those who voted leave

This is silly - in the highly improbable event that the LDs get a majority, they'd have a mandate to revoke.

They won't get a majority of course - but they have a right to put what they like in their manifesto.

The referendum mandate died in 2017 when May went to the country on a Brexit manifesto and failed to win a majority.

In that sense this election is all about Brexit.

Nigel Farage IS 'in secret talks with Boris Johnson to pull the majority of Brexit Party candidates out of the election
- in return for the PM negotiating a harder deal < post-Brexit future trade deal >

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7668673/Nigel-Farage-secret-talks-Boris-Johnson-pull-majority-Brexit-Party-candidates-election-return-PM-negotiating-harder-deal.html

Senior allies of Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson have held secret last-minute talks in an effort to strike a deal that would stop the Brexitt^ Party splitting the Tory vote and letting Jeremy Corbynn^ into Downing Street.

The Mail on Sunday can reveal that a close confidant of Mr Farage has held talks with senior Tory ‘power brokers’ over a deal to pull the vast majority of Brexit Party candidates out of the Election.

In return, Mr Johnson would promise to strike a harder deal with Brussels after winning a majority.
.....
The talks come as chorus of voices from within the Brexit Party call for Mr Farage to perform a U-turn over his plans to field candidates in 600 seats

It is understood that under the proposal made by Mr Reid,
Mr Farage would accept the Withdrawal Agreement which Mr Johnson negotiated to govern our exit from the EU, as long as the PM made changes to the Political Declaration covering the UK’s post-Brexit relations with the EU.

If Mr Johnson cut the ‘transition period’ from 2022 to December 2020 and ensured that the UK would no longer be bound by Brussels regulations after that, then Mr Farage would stand down his candidates.

Tory Fibs
@ToryFibs
Outstanding journalism. Tory MP comes on the telly to attack Labour spending & ends up leaving with his backside handed to him on a plate.

twitter.com/i/status/1193451487340486657

Alsohuman - I borrowed your post and put it onto the AIBU thread - that was cheeky of me.

It was a very good thing to do. I was delighted. Great team work.

If Mr Johnson cut the ‘transition period’ from 2022 to December 2020 and ensured that the UK would no longer be bound by Brussels regulations after that, then Mr Farage would stand down his candidates.

These people are fucking morons. Excuse my French. They don't even know what's in the current WA!

So BJ just has to 'Promise' to be good, and Farage will stand down his troops?

Tiny flaw in this reasoning?

This is silly - in the highly improbable event that the LDs get a majority, they'd have a mandate to revoke.

In the eyes of remainers perhaps... Half the country would see their vote “betrayed”. Of course their pledge to revoke is hypothetical, but it demonstrates they’re not a “one-nation” party, but a party of the Remain faction.

The rumoured BJ-Farage pact sounds basically like what BJ is supposed to have promised the ERG: pass his WA and go for WTO terms by end 2020.

@JustAnotherPoster00, that clip’s amazing. The sheer stupidity of that man is breathtaking.

The right seems to be seriously rattled now and still five weeks to go.