Brexit Arms. Empty Ditch for sale. Interested parties please contact owner by 12th Dec.

[Epicwaffle]

Apparently the usual landlady over ordered on Bar nuts on the last thread. Just step over them if you find them here, as we haven’t had a chance to clear them up yet.

Welcome to all friendly parties!

First drinks are free!

However, has anyone ever come across a leave voter that feels that a peoples vote would be a good or fair option?

There are a number of 'leaver's remorse' voters who never though leave would win and just wanted to give Cameron a bloody nose. They'd welcome another bite at the cherry. There is another section of the Leave vote who didn't realise the complexity of the 'Leave' process and the impact it would have in Ireland (etc), who would also change their vote this time. I've encountered both sorts.

No idea about the numbers, though, so no idea whether it'd make a difference to the result.

To clarify, Re my pp, I don’t mean leavers who have changed their minds, as technically that makes them remainers now. I specifically mean leavers who still want to leave.

Ah ok. If you're defining it thus, I guess not .

Although I 100% agree with the remain election campaign of the LD’s, Jo Swinson is a really annoying speaker.

Haha, no worries steve, sorry about that!

I still accept your points though, those leavers are certainly out there! Maybe even here?

Problem with JC's offer is we already had a PV in 2016. I voted Labour in 2017 on the basis that I absolutely did not believe they intended to honour the Ref. However a Corbyn Labour win would have changed things so radically that they would have effectively been forced to Brexit.

Things are different now because All Other Manifesto Commitments Labour are making will be sacrificed at the altar of the primary goal of Remain. The fact that they would be in coalition with the LibDems and the SNP makes this a racing certainty. Indyref2 would also be a certainty. To my mind Corbynism is a corpse front for the return of Blairism. If anything, Boris is looking to be able to deliver a more Left wing economic agenda from the centre. That is why I made the comment about the Resolution Foundation.

Referendums work for Yes/No questions but details on Deals are for politicians to sort out.

Sorry for the waffly answer Epic but I do fit the description of a Labour Leaver so wanted to give my tuppence worth.

Last time I voted Tory was in 1997 to stop Tony Blair's Devolution plan. That is the roots of all of this imo but no-one agreed with me then and they may not now.

Swinson

‘I’ll be your PM.’

Paraphrasing obvs (I feel like I have to make this clear on every post these days!)

No Jo, no you won’t. It’s about 99.9 % impossible.

Ok shit maths there on my PP, (as I’m sure someone will be along to point out in a sec, with a carefully broken down mathematical overview.) but you get my drift!

Things are different now because All Other Manifesto Commitments Labour are making will be sacrificed at the altar of the primary goal of Remain.

JC is a Eurosceptic, and will be until he shuffles off this mortal coil. His primary goal is to negotiate a Brexit deal that gives him what he wants - May's primary red line was ending 'freedom of movement of workers', Corbyn's will be freedom from 'state aid' rules. If he gets that, you can guarantee Labour will be campaigning for 'Leave' under those terms.

So the labour plan is negotiate new deal in 3 months and then PV in 6 months.
I can believe Corbyn will get a new deal in three months as it will be very simple - we will be in the EU in all but name via CU and SM plus paying a hefty chunk of money which the EU will happily agree to.
So the PV will be Corbyn deal (basically in the EU) or remain (full EU member). What a choice!
No wonder the remainers are torn. Go Lib Dem which is naked anti democracy or Labour which means you can hide behind a thin veil of it by claiming you’re letting the people decide (remain v remain though!). It’s a massive con and I hope people see through it.

“Sorry for the waffly answer Epic but I do fit the description of a Labour Leaver so wanted to give my tuppence worth.”

Not at all how! Thank you for your detailed answer! Will have a proper read through now...

I hate Corbyn with a passion. I feel I should reiterate this!

However, I do feel a (very, very, very) tiny bit sorry for him as he'd love to leave the EU & has been consistent with that over the decades.

Labour will never, ever be a leave party though regardless of what Jezza wants, & for them to continue to pretend otherwise is fucking annoying!

Commentators keep talking about Leavers' Remorse and Apathy. However the strength of support for the Brexit Party in the EU elections and since makes me sceptical.

I don't meet many open Leavers irl. Remain is very much the accepted default in Scotland so in polite society it is fine to bemoan the whole sorry mess but not to question the Remain orthodoxy. Very similar to 2014 when Yes was the accepted orthodoxy (the actual vote was 55% No).

I have heard Leavers and Remainers regret that politicians have made such a mess of Leaving but none actually regretting their choice.

I just wish Farage would stop being such a monumental tit now tbh

Commentators keep talking about Leavers' Remorse and Apathy. However the strength of support for the Brexit Party in the EU elections and since makes me sceptical.

Sceptical is good! However: Brexit party vote at EU elections: ~5.3M votes....that leaves another ~10M leave voters unaccounted for (say 8M once you've discounted the Tory vote), so there's apathy there for certain.

I just wish Farage would stop being such a monumental tit now tbh

"Farage's gonna Farage".

😂

Referendums work for Yes/No questions but details on Deals are for politicians to sort out.

Couldn’t agree more. It’s the view I took when I voted. Ie; whether we leave with a deal or without. That was for parliament to figure out. Or at least that’s what I thought would happen between 600+ professional grown ups.

“Farage gonna farage”

Yep, he is staying true to type I guess! Annoying fucker!

Or at least that’s what I thought would happen between 600+ professional grown ups.

Me too. Then exit Cameron, enter May...

“I can believe Corbyn will get a new deal in three months as it will be very simple - we will be in the EU in all but name via CU and SM plus paying a hefty chunk of money which the EU will happily agree to.
So the PV will be Corbyn deal (basically in the EU) or remain (full EU member). What a choice! “

Very very true!

Three years of obfuscation and fragmentation haven't helped the issue, any more than three years of name calling and polarisation.

I live in a previously Remainer-dominated enclave but that's changing too. Remainers of my acquaintance are in despair at the damage caused to public trust in democracy and although they would still have preferred a Remain outcome, they feel that not to leave now would destroy us as a country altogether. They say openly they would vote Leave if asked to vote again for that reason. It's not Remainer Remorse, more a recognition of the greater principle.

I've also changed two Remainer minds in my own extended family, purely on the issue of self-determination - and they are both diehard Labour voters.

And my final thought: how many Leavers keep quiet in everyday conversation and let the opinions of others wash over them while saying nothing? I'm not saying that Remainers have a monopoly on vitriol. There are Leavers every bit as bad. But you have only to look at other Brexit threads on MN to see how often lone (brave) Leavers who stick their heads above the parapet are instantly rubbished and dismissed.

Shutting down debate is one way of making sure that only those around you affirm your views but it doesn't change statistical reality. And vitriol and name-calling never changed anyone's mind.

Goodjob that'll be the 8m who chose not to vote for an EU institution they had already voted to Leave - not the same as apathy.

I do expect turnout to be down on 2017 and probably most among Labour Leavers who have no-one to vote for and were already disinclined to vote prior to EURef. Scotland is again instructive.
The SNP did so well in 2015 because of motivated Yes turnout hoping to reverse the 2014 Ref. This had reversed by 2017, hence their loss of 20+ seats. When looking at opinion polls with don't knows of 25%+ it is worth remembering that normal turnout is only around 70%.

how many Leavers keep quiet in everyday conversation and let the opinions of others wash over them while saying nothing?

My personal experience: Remainers make up ridiculous 'didn't happen' stories and post them on twitter, Leavers go on drunken rants on public transport.

Neither is particularly edifying, tbh.

“And my final thought: how many Leavers keep quiet in everyday conversation and let the opinions of others wash over them while saying nothing? I'm not saying that Remainers have a monopoly on vitriol. There are Leavers every bit as bad. But you have only to look at other Brexit threads on MN to see how often lone (brave) Leavers who stick their heads above the parapet are instantly rubbished and dismissed.”

I actually do this in real life. So I agree that this is widespread. 100%.

that'll be the 8m who chose not to vote for an EU institution they had already voted to Leave - not the same as apathy.

I'm not claiming all 8M couldn't be bothered - I'm sure that you're right in that voters refused to vote in the EU elections on principle, but that won't be all 8M. The difference is the 'apathetic leavers', I'd say.