Anyone else worry that we could end up with civil war and the break up of the UK?

[KennDodd]

All because of that wretched unnecessary referendum.

A number of surveys have shown just how many people think violence and the break up of the UK is a price worth paying for Brexit (or no Brexit). We've already got increased tensions in both NI and Scotland. Brexit has all the far right racist groups on their side, so quick to violence, Remain has the young on its side, so again quick to violence. Politicians and the media seem to be intent on only raising the temperature further.

This isn't something that keeps me awake at night or anything but I think people are naive if they think it could never happen here. I suppose one way to avoid it would be if Brexit did happen and the sunlit uplands and all the Brexit promises actually happened. I don't know anyone (Leave or Remain) who believes everything will suddenly get a lot better anymore though. Even if it did I still can't see any solution for the border in Ireland.

Of course. It’s not a problem if its only us NI folk affected. We’re used to it, take it in our stride dontcha know. But heaven forfend it affect actual people who might be hurt.
I agree with your sentiment here. I have never met a leave voter who give a shit about a possible return to violence in NI, not one. The most I've got is a disinterested shrug of the shoulders. I wonder if Remain voters would be any better if the position was reversed and Remain posed a threat to the peace in NI and GFA? Brexit really has bought out the worst in us, it's really sad to see just how little we care for each other.

I think some people are unaware of the rougher parts of the UK, and the darker side of UK culture. There are not 'just a few waxy lemon' type people, and not everyone is a keyboard warrior. There are many people who grow up with violence as a normality, and who have been given legitimate cause for anger in an increasingly strait-jacketed economy. There will be trouble.

I know IWorkAtTheCheescakeFactory, I completely agree with your post.

@DarkAtTheEndOfUk

Nah, I live on a shit estate.

There is nothing they could or would do that the police couldn't stamp out pretty smartly.

“the troubles” will not restart in NI and it’s unhelpful and dismissive to use that term for any unrest in NI a result of the current Brexit related political instability. “The troubles” are over. They were a specific period of civil war. If there is an eruption of violence in NI it will not be just NI up to old tricks again. It’s ignorant to refer to it as such. Any Brexit related unrest is exactly that- not more “troubles”. It would be a new civil war.
I'm curious are you from northern Ireland or do you know anyone from northern ireland?

There is peace for now but it by no means indicates that the tensions underlying the troubles are gone. I'm from the republic of Ireland myself but know a number of people who live in northern Ireland who see the tensions on a regular basis. Some friends intentionally leave Belfast every year for the orange day marches to avoid the violence and fires.

Brexit and bringing back borders is perfectly capable of reigniting the embers of the troubles.

I think Brexit will cause chaos. There will be violence if there is a border in Ireland, there will be violence if there is a border in the Irish sea. If Brexit is cancelled there will be violence, if Brexit goes through and is as bad as predicted then there will be violence. So yes Brexit equals violence in one form or another. As for breaking up the uk, then I think this could happen also. Scotland will definitely have another referendum for independence and it could go through this time, the main selling point of remaining in the last vote was the EU. If Boris's agreement goes through i could see this accelerating the vote for a United Ireland at least, something I thought I never see in my lifetime.

I'm curious are you from northern Ireland or do you know anyone from northern ireland?

Born and raised and still living here.

The troubles are over. What exists now is much changed from what was happening during the war. They’re using the same names and it’s the same sides but it’s not the same war. If Brexit causes violence to start here it isn’t “the troubles” reigniting. It’s a whole new game. Different reasons. Calling it “the troubles” feels very much like a way of denying any connection to the cause of the violence. I’m not prepared to sit and witness that anymore. I’ve seen enough of that.

The only place where violence is possible is NI

This is a very naive view.

If there is a land border between NI and Ireland, republican terrorists are going to be pissed off at England

If there is a sea border between NI and GB, loyalist terrorists are going to be pissed off at England

Either way, if violence escalates here again, it is likely that England will be targeted too. And more so than previous times, pre-internet... much easier now for them to recruit people already living in GB rather than try to smuggle explosives/arms across the water

I agree with the previous poster who said that if there is nothing left in the shops to loot there will be no riots.

To be truthful, anyone who thinks that the UK is going to break down into some sort of armed anarchy with bloodshed on the streets is probably being a little over imaginative.

Ok sorry the term reigniting the troubles offends you it was not my intention. However I still think enforcement of borders will reignite sectarian violence in northern Ireland.
I would hope no one would want that but I dont think the likelihood of this happening is being addressed by Westminster and seems to simply be an afterthought which is horrendous.

It’s not the that term offends me, it doesn’t, it’s that it’s inaccurate.

However I still think enforcement of borders will reignite sectarian violence in northern Ireland.

It will. There will already be plans in place now for if a hard border is enforced. But that’s not the troubles. As easy and convenient as it would be for some to just refer it as the troubles kicking off again, it’s inaccurate. It will be a new war. Caused by Brexit. Which had nothing to do with the troubles.

I dont think the likelihood of this happening is being addressed by Westminster and seems to simply be an afterthought which is horrendous.

Yep.

As easy and convenient as it would be for some to just refer it as the troubles kicking off again, it’s inaccurate.

I do not view the issues in northern Ireland with this dismissive tone at all.

It will be a new war. Caused by Brexit. Which had nothing to do with the troubles.

I do see your point of view here but I dont agree with it.
I see it as a civil war which was bought to an end by a peace treaty. That treaty is now at risk of being broken which may lead to civil war. Given that the breaking of aspects of the treaty will be a major contributing factor to this war one could definitely say it is restarting the civil war.
I do see that you can say that the factors that lead to the breaking of the treaty caused the war.

I dont think either view is particulary wrong

No I didn’t mean you were using it to be dismissive, sorry- I can see why it came across that way. Youre just using it as it’s what is being used by pretty much everyone in the conversation. I do see your point on the rest of the comment too.

Yes I'm worried.

If the vote had been taken seriously and mps had believed it was important to stand by the vote, we would be out by now and probably, whilst entirely free of the eu, we would have some good tokens to please Remainers..
Unfortunately that luxury has been robbed by mps going back on the thier word and most of parliament not committed to delivering brexit.

So now we are in a far more dangerous position where democracy is at risk.
I am not wild about politics, I am a swing voter. I don't join the parties.

But I do feel proud of the democracy we are. I am grateful to live in the UK, under a democracy and I've read enough about other systems to really hold ours dear.

And right now I feel extremely angry. I voted in good faith over 3 years ago in once in a life time vote that would be honoured... I feel furious.... How on earth do others feel???

Yes, Scotland will gain independence, Ireland will reunite. London will riot because most Londoners don't want to leave. But they're stuck from a geographical perspective.

There will be an exodus of EU including Irish nationals out of England which will adversely affect the NHS, the City, business etc.

House prices in England will plummet as people leave. Can't imagine it's going to be fun at all..

You won't live in the UK in 5 years: you will live in England which will be much reduced. @Sunnyuplands

Don't kid yourself that this is some democratic nirvana. The Empire isn't coming back regardless of Brexit being delivered or not.

The vote has been taken seriously - Parliament has done little else but consider Brexit for the last three years. However, if Johnson and Rees-Mogg and others had voted for May's deal the first time she brought it back we would have been out by now. Since then we have had time wasted with a Tory party Leadership election, then Johnson and Rees-Mogg illegally proroguing Parliament and wasting time.

How do I feel? I don't know why Leavers aren't more angry with Johnson and Rees-Mogg, Davis, Redwood etc. - all the noisy Leave promoters - who for their own reasons have stymied the Leave process.

Society is a very thin veneer, on average if a population misses 3 hot meals due to infrastructure breakdown violence erupts. Now how likely is that to happen with Brexit? Probably fairly high.

That’s the fuse, the bomb is the past 3 years of political tensions.

The referendum vote has been taken incredibly seriously. All other policies have fallen by the wayside. The problem is that not everyone wants the UK to leave and vote accordingly for pro EU candidates. The MPs actions in parliament reflect the disagreements in society and I for one hope beyond hope that this is how the disagreements will continue to manifest themselves - in debate, in the HoC.

Brexit, if it goes ahead peacefully, will have be a series of compromises made by the British public and politicians. I hope soon the leave voters and politicians start to discuss amongst themselves what compromises they can settle on.

I'm not a leave voter but I'd be happy with a Norway+ at this point. Maintain the Irish/NI boarder as currently is, take the rules and oversight from EU in exchange for protection from lower standards, lower wages, losing FoM etc.

riots and violence yes, absolutely. civil war no.
i dislike most brexiteers but i cover it well i think.
the uk will decline quickly now- thanks to them.

But again Helmetbymidnight, there is a real risk to the Northern Irish peace process. If that breaks down that's civil war in the UK.

Why do so many people seem to think it's only civil war if it's in their corner of the UK and not mine?

thats true- apologies.

I didn't understand the vote to be binding , it was an indicative vote. Yet another way people were lied to it seems.

I don't think we will have a civil war and I do not want any violence on any of our streets. That said, I don't have a problem with the break up of the UK. I think we would all be better off governing our individual selves. I don't mean that with any malice whatsoever.

If the vote had been taken seriously and mps had believed it was important to stand by the vote, we would be out by now and probably, whilst entirely free of the eu, we would have some good tokens to please Remainers.

Sunny, could you say what you mean by the bit in bold please? Do you think we would have been out with a 'clean break', that multiple trade deals would have been struck, and Remainers would therefore be pacified when they saw how brilliant it all is? All within 3.5 years? I don't otherwise know what you mean by 'good tokens to please remainers'. What else might these good tokens be? Better health service? Better employment prospects for our children? A thriving economy? A more equitable society (this one would be a real measure of success, as far as I'm concerned)?