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Brexit

Westminstenders: Don't and Keep Living

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 23/10/2019 13:19

Status Recall as of approx 1

Johnson’s Withdrawal Agreement (The WA) :
Currently parliamentary session blocked in its current form due to being nodded through (government accept defeat without vote). It can not be represented to the house without changes (which the EU will not allow - unless perhaps it reverts back to May's WA) or a 'substantive change of circumstances' (eg another party says they will support it and there is reason to believe Johnson now has a clear majority).

The Withdrawal Agreement Bill (The WAB):
The withdrawal agreement bill is purely about how the WA will be carried out in UK law. It passed its 2nd reading which is merely a indication of interest of support for the bill. The next stage is where amendments can be made and this is most relevant to the political declaration which accompanies the WA settlement.

This however has hit a road block due to the government recklessly and foolishly trying to push such an important and far reaching bill through in a ridiculous time frame, which no one could possibly give proper scrutiny to.

If Johnson wants a deal in the best int3of the country its an essential part of the process regardless of which side of the fence you sit. Failure to spot problems could leave us shafted by other countries later down the line.

The timetable is now under review and negotiation with Corbyn.

The extension with the EU:
The EU president has signaled he would support an extension. This is in part because issues in London mean it is highly unlikely the EU will be able to ratify a deal by next Thursday even if they have an emergency meeting. It's in their interests to extend in some way.

Going along with the Benn Act is the politically least risky option, though France are making growling noises about it.

Two issues spring up with this. The first is the issue of the UK having no EU Commissioner after 1st Nov and the second is the EU budget runs until 31st Dec 2019.

The Queens Speech:
The government as it stands might struggle to pass the QS especially with the DUP off side. It failing to pass is, in some ways, a good thing for Johnson. The speech was essentially a manifesto and blocking it is a good electioneering strategy. It also puts pressure on the opposition for a Vote of No Confidence.

There are already rumblings following the passing of the 2nd reading of the WAB and the EU signally they are open to an extension that some in Labour (including crucially Corbyn) do think they must agree to a GE in the autumn.

A Vonc is still unlikely to happen until the EU formalise the extension and the EU are unlikely to do this until its clear what Johnson's next move with the WAB is. Johnson meanwhile doesn't want to agree to a longer timetable as that ruins his do or die speech and facilitates an extension. So expect some brinkmanship over timings here. We might not get a formal extension approved until the wire.

The GE:
All Brexit is currently about is manoeuvring to win the next GE. It must be seen in this context.

Polling suggests that an extension without the WA is bad for Johnson and he is likely to lose support to the Brexit Party. There is an ever shrinking likelihood of the WA going through before 31st Oct, if its not impossible already. Thus Johnson needs to see if he can get the WA through very quickly after an extension but before a GE.

This reasonably lines up with Labour's problems. Before the WA goes through a GE looks bad for them with them haemorrhaging support to the LDs and the the Brexit Party.

If they are seen to facilitate the WA passing before an election then there may also be a sense of betrayal amongst their majority remain supporters but it might let them off with the Brexit Party threat particularly in the Midlands.

Meanwhile the SNP have an increasing desire for a GE. They look like they will clean up in Scotland and it might be their last chance now to stop Brexit. Similar logic applies to the LDs.

Thus the chances of a GE shoot up once an extension is granted, but the Cons and Labour have a mutual self interest in getting a deal done ASAP before a GE in many ways.

This of course would probably suit the French and therefore the EU.

Which is why a deal before 15th Nov and by the 15th Dec, isnt unrealistic. A GE might come before Christmas but I think both the Cons and Lab have something of an interest in letting the dust settle and getting new messaging in to head off threats from the LDs and Brexit Party. I'd be more inclined to say a Feb election tbh.

Anyway things may have changed since I started typing this up given how quickly things are moving.

But despite the headlines that Brexit is in pergortory it is now slowly rolling forward and now has some momentum behind it.

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Thread gallery
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thecatfromjapan · 24/10/2019 22:10

I'm repeating the call for a group hug.

And Terminator is coming.

With an older woman lead.

Bearbehind · 24/10/2019 22:11

One of those should say BJ 😂

Ellie56 · 24/10/2019 22:11

A December election? Hmm

Apart from all the logistical problems, as PP mentioned, I think a lot of people are going to be more interested in their Christmas parties, late night shopping, school plays and generally getting ready for Christmas to be bothered with voting. Or is this part of the plan?

thecatfromjapan · 24/10/2019 22:12

By the way, I did some volunteering at People's Vote the other day - and it may be a cliche but PV people are really nice.

It was a good day.

flouncyfanny · 24/10/2019 22:13

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

flouncyfanny · 24/10/2019 22:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BigChocFrenzy · 24/10/2019 22:18

possible problem with Monday GE debate:

I gather Corbyn doesn't want to commit to a GE until a sufficiently long extension has been agreed, to ensure this happens before Brexit can

BUT
it looks like Tusks attempts to get consent by phone calls & EM isn't working, so reports now of an EUCO meeting - maybe via video link - on Monday evening
AND
the GE debate starts Monday 2:30 pm - BEFORE the EUCO mtg

I don't know if the EU would move their mtg to enable their decision before the HoC debate
They might be fed up again, but ...

otherwise MPs would be debating & then maybe even voting, blindly

tobee · 24/10/2019 22:19

It's a disgrace that you have to be subjected to that and frequently Just! Angry Can't blame you for being angry.

The80s that's what I'm wondering. Presumably it will help if a majority is returned. Or parliament is ground down further. But, it's a gamble if anything less and back to square one. And revoke or pv surely the only alternatives.

RedToothBrush · 24/10/2019 22:22

The tone of this thread since I posted around 8pm is awful.

I'm depressed.

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NoCryingInEngineering · 24/10/2019 22:24

Listening the rail plans I understand and the way the franchising system has been fucked up created makes it easy to stagger the program. Plus there's plenty of precedent and there are already the holding companies in place etc etc.

The water industry runs on a 5 year funding cycle (currently being determined to start in April) and is fairly heavily and sometimes contridictingly (that probably isn't a word) regulated. While its probably popular to talk about nationalisation I don't see the benefits in the same way there are for rail. But done badly it would probably have the potential to cause endless fuck ups, many of them long term if they impact on infrastructure

thecatfromjapan · 24/10/2019 22:26

Ouch.

Sorry, Red.

RedToothBrush · 24/10/2019 22:27

Lewis Goodall@lewis_goodall
If MPs reject election on Monday, when the history of Brexit is written, historians will seriously ponder why remainers had three chances to stop it and each time, refused.

Already, quietly, lots of Lab voices think rejecting September election offer was a mistake. I predict same will come to be thought of this one.

Now I don't want a GE but this is a genuine point about tactics

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ListeningQuietly · 24/10/2019 22:27

NoCrying
THe Nationalisations will not happen.
Hopefully the better regulation will
which is a good thing

and we have to focus on THE POSITIVE THINGS WE WANT
because that is better than all emphasis being on
the shit we do not want

BigChocFrenzy · 24/10/2019 22:28

(({ red } )) I think we're all stressed and feeling down atm
Hence the posts are angrier than usual

This cheered me up, because it shows we still have firm friends in the EU: Smile
the header picture on Norbert Röttgen's twitter

  • he chairs the Foreign Affairs committee in the German Parliament and is close to Merkel
Westminstenders: Don't and Keep Living
Hoooo · 24/10/2019 22:33

My son is 16 and even he knows there is simply no money for re-nationalisation.

Depressing times.

ListeningQuietly · 24/10/2019 22:34

positive things

  • the UK is amazing at precision engineering and is a world leader in wind turbines
  • the UK is amazing at shallow sea engineering - both windfarm, shore protection and wave technology
  • the UK has an education system that in all sectors encourages lateral and analytical thought which might help save us all from Climate change
SO Lets look outwards and work with the rest of the world to save us all

That is the Post Brexit goal Grin

Hoooo · 24/10/2019 22:36

Tomorrow is another day...

lonelyplanetmum · 24/10/2019 22:37

*RTB
*
With the number of threads there have been and the time they've spanned the overall tone and content has been unbelievable. I am behind on this thread due to watching a film with DCs . But If there's been a dip in tone at anytime it's understandable. The thing to focus on is the 99% of the time when debate and content and insight have been exemplary and prescient.

NoCryingInEngineering · 24/10/2019 22:38

Ok, but the policy isn't renationalise only mainline trains and improve regulation elsewhere. Its let's renationalise everything. Whether it works/needs it or not.

Which might sound good but to me it feels like the same soundbites over details that has been steadily getting us in this mess in the first place.

NoCryingInEngineering · 24/10/2019 22:40

Also given the general lack of clarity and trust the flavour of Vote For This (but we don't really mean it) isn't great either

tobee · 24/10/2019 22:44

It's not just that we're stressed, it's that we've been stressed for months. With the odd few days/weeks to recuperate knowing the next onslaught is round the corner. It's ratcheted up several notches since Johnson got into No. 10. Precisely playing into the Cummings scenario.

Peregrina · 24/10/2019 22:45

- the UK has an education system that in all sectors encourages lateral and analytical thought which might help save us all from Climate change

I would say, used to have, but at the moment we have a Gradgrind curriculum, courtesy of Gove.

RedToothBrush · 24/10/2019 22:45

Well I think being stressed and taking it out on each other unhelpful.

I do believe that most people think they are doing the best and right thing. Yes that includes people who are 'still' voting Tory. It depends so much on how much of the world people see. It is possible to carry on through life and just not be aware of others.

A friend of mine is very much a champagne socialist and firmly a Labour voter. Lovely woman but totally in her own world.

The other week she commented that there wasn't any single mothers near where she lived. I had to bite my tongue very hard. She lives opposite a small council estate where most of the residents happen to be single Mums, some of whom I know fairly well.

She just doesn't see them. She has her head in the clouds. Where her cleaner lives I'm really not sure.

'Poor people' are just not people in her world apart directly. Thus she is detached from reality.

She regularly comes out with such gems.

She isn't a lot different to some of the Tory voters around here. She just happens to like the idea of helping all these people she can't see under her nose.

Personally I find it as hard to wrap my head around as anyone who says austerity is a good thing.

It's being oblivious to the experience of others which is the problem not which political party they are or support.

That manifests in many ways

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thecatfromjapan · 24/10/2019 22:46

Terrorised.

I keep saying this: Johnson is terrorising the electorate.

prettybird · 24/10/2019 22:47

The tone did dip momentarily - but it's testament to the good character of the contributors and the quality of the debate that it has recovered SmileThanks