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Brexit

Westminstenders: Don't and Keep Living

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 23/10/2019 13:19

Status Recall as of approx 1

Johnson’s Withdrawal Agreement (The WA) :
Currently parliamentary session blocked in its current form due to being nodded through (government accept defeat without vote). It can not be represented to the house without changes (which the EU will not allow - unless perhaps it reverts back to May's WA) or a 'substantive change of circumstances' (eg another party says they will support it and there is reason to believe Johnson now has a clear majority).

The Withdrawal Agreement Bill (The WAB):
The withdrawal agreement bill is purely about how the WA will be carried out in UK law. It passed its 2nd reading which is merely a indication of interest of support for the bill. The next stage is where amendments can be made and this is most relevant to the political declaration which accompanies the WA settlement.

This however has hit a road block due to the government recklessly and foolishly trying to push such an important and far reaching bill through in a ridiculous time frame, which no one could possibly give proper scrutiny to.

If Johnson wants a deal in the best int3of the country its an essential part of the process regardless of which side of the fence you sit. Failure to spot problems could leave us shafted by other countries later down the line.

The timetable is now under review and negotiation with Corbyn.

The extension with the EU:
The EU president has signaled he would support an extension. This is in part because issues in London mean it is highly unlikely the EU will be able to ratify a deal by next Thursday even if they have an emergency meeting. It's in their interests to extend in some way.

Going along with the Benn Act is the politically least risky option, though France are making growling noises about it.

Two issues spring up with this. The first is the issue of the UK having no EU Commissioner after 1st Nov and the second is the EU budget runs until 31st Dec 2019.

The Queens Speech:
The government as it stands might struggle to pass the QS especially with the DUP off side. It failing to pass is, in some ways, a good thing for Johnson. The speech was essentially a manifesto and blocking it is a good electioneering strategy. It also puts pressure on the opposition for a Vote of No Confidence.

There are already rumblings following the passing of the 2nd reading of the WAB and the EU signally they are open to an extension that some in Labour (including crucially Corbyn) do think they must agree to a GE in the autumn.

A Vonc is still unlikely to happen until the EU formalise the extension and the EU are unlikely to do this until its clear what Johnson's next move with the WAB is. Johnson meanwhile doesn't want to agree to a longer timetable as that ruins his do or die speech and facilitates an extension. So expect some brinkmanship over timings here. We might not get a formal extension approved until the wire.

The GE:
All Brexit is currently about is manoeuvring to win the next GE. It must be seen in this context.

Polling suggests that an extension without the WA is bad for Johnson and he is likely to lose support to the Brexit Party. There is an ever shrinking likelihood of the WA going through before 31st Oct, if its not impossible already. Thus Johnson needs to see if he can get the WA through very quickly after an extension but before a GE.

This reasonably lines up with Labour's problems. Before the WA goes through a GE looks bad for them with them haemorrhaging support to the LDs and the the Brexit Party.

If they are seen to facilitate the WA passing before an election then there may also be a sense of betrayal amongst their majority remain supporters but it might let them off with the Brexit Party threat particularly in the Midlands.

Meanwhile the SNP have an increasing desire for a GE. They look like they will clean up in Scotland and it might be their last chance now to stop Brexit. Similar logic applies to the LDs.

Thus the chances of a GE shoot up once an extension is granted, but the Cons and Labour have a mutual self interest in getting a deal done ASAP before a GE in many ways.

This of course would probably suit the French and therefore the EU.

Which is why a deal before 15th Nov and by the 15th Dec, isnt unrealistic. A GE might come before Christmas but I think both the Cons and Lab have something of an interest in letting the dust settle and getting new messaging in to head off threats from the LDs and Brexit Party. I'd be more inclined to say a Feb election tbh.

Anyway things may have changed since I started typing this up given how quickly things are moving.

But despite the headlines that Brexit is in pergortory it is now slowly rolling forward and now has some momentum behind it.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
22
JustAnotherPoster00 · 24/10/2019 21:29

Why the 'Get Fucked' comment Bearbehind ?

She was quoting me cos ya know 'kinder gentler politics' that us Corbynites are meant to ascribe to and what they want is for us to take the abuse with no return, I hope I have made it obvious I dont quite follow that mantra, but mine are just words Bear voted for disabled people like me to be treated like shit and I'm sure she loves it like the true Tory she is

Peregrina · 24/10/2019 21:29

I regard myself as a centrist, but hate the current manifestation of Tories with a passion. I also found much to agree with in the last Labour manifesto. If I lived elsewhere I might vote Labour, and am not the only one.

One thing I hope for is that Boris Johnson wastes his time trying to coerce Labour voters in the North to vote for him, and takes his eye off the ball in the South, where the LibDems clean up. Especially if Farage's idiots help to split the vote.

ListeningQuietly · 24/10/2019 21:30

squid
Labour groups are at all ER and Student strike events

I spent a whole weekend near a bunch of ER folks last summer and they and the Labour stall next door were both ranting about Jezza

labour as a broad church see where things need to go
momentum and the church of JC are too tribal to realise that they are just
Bozo's useful fools look it up if you do not know the reference

AutumnCrow · 24/10/2019 21:32

That violence poll - what questions were asked? In what order? What wording? Details of sample population? Sample sizes?

I'm only reading soundbite interpretation so far.

Be nice.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 24/10/2019 21:32

labour as a broad church see where things need to go
momentum and the church of JC are too tribal to realise that they are just Bozo's useful fools

We were Camerons useful fools too - where did he go?
If I remember we were also Teresa Mays useful fools Hmm

Bearbehind · 24/10/2019 21:32

Why the 'Get Fucked' comment

violet I was quoting justs ‘get fucked’ comment of evidence of how toxic things have become

tobee · 24/10/2019 21:33

Such a big fucking lie over the decades that you can trust the Conservative Party with economy. A big lie that the electorate have swallowed hook, line and sinker! Angry

thecatfromjapan · 24/10/2019 21:33

And yet the Conservatives are still in power ...

Honestly, this GE is just too serious to lose.

Bearbehind · 24/10/2019 21:36

Bear voted for disabled people like me to be treated like shit and I'm sure she loves it like the true Tory she is

While you believe that everyone who has ever voted Tory genuinely did so to ‘make disabled people be treated like shit’ then you’re never going to take your blinkers off.

Violetparis · 24/10/2019 21:36

Ok Just I thought the comment was meant for me but have re-read the past few pages.

SwedishEdith · 24/10/2019 21:37

Here's the poll questions for England

www.cardiff.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/1708631/Copy-of-England-16-Oct-AH.pdf

JustAnotherPoster00 · 24/10/2019 21:39

then you’re never going to take your blinkers off.

Bit hard to do when you know in less than 6 months you have to again prove how disabled you are, how hard that is to do when its a mental illness and then have to go into detail about 'why havent you killed yourself yet'

thecatfromjapan · 24/10/2019 21:42

Just That is awful. We may not agree about Corbyn (and I don't think we ever will) but I will be out, doing what I can, to bring that sort of situation to an end.

And I think we really are just going to have to pray for success for the progressives in this GE.

Because, frankly, I really worry for us all if they/we don't.

squid4 · 24/10/2019 21:43

I’m too tired to work out if your calling me tribal... I just like the policies. I don’t have issue with different parts of labour though I wish everyone (who believes in essentially similar stuff) could stop fighting... if I have in any way contributed to that I’m sorry.

Hoooo · 24/10/2019 21:44

I think bear protests too much.

The tories - that she/he voted for has caused untold misery and death since 2010.

....and yet people still vote for them.

Go figure.

I run a foodbank.

I see thd result of tory austerity - and your vote bear - on a weekly basis.

Just be honest ffs!

You still vote tory because you don't care

Oakenbeach · 24/10/2019 21:45

So how will this all play out... the twists and turns are infuriating and intriguing in equal measure. War gaming this is fascinating!

I’m not sure what to make of it all, but for all the political capital BJ will get from lambasting “cowardly” opposition, he could be seriously weakened if opposition parties are enabled to “take control” of HoC business and table a programme motion for the WAB with a reasonable timetable.

His apparent desire to get Brexit done will be set in stark contrast with his desire for power and a majority Tory Government.

If he doesn’t support such a programme motion, his Brexiteer detractors will have a strong case that Brexit isn’t actually his priority at all, with this providing impetus to Farage and the Brexit Party to gain traction once again as time moves on. From the opposite end, he also risks a further rebellion by Hammond and Clarke etc, who won’t want to play along with BJ’s games and will likely be minded to vote for such a motion.

Yet, if he does support a programme motion, it will be seen as a capitulation to Corbyn... All in all, it would potentially be a real lose-lose situation for BJ.

ListeningQuietly · 24/10/2019 21:45

If JC's narrow mindedness facilitates brexit do you think PIP claims will get easier
fwiw I had no idea you were on PIP

Seriously, party tribalism is playing right into Bozo's game
stop now
and then go back to it after the danger is over

BigChocFrenzy · 24/10/2019 21:45

KLAXON - December GE Logistics !

Another Tory election fuckup disenfranchising millions of (non-Tory) voters ?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/december-election-could-bring-curtain-down-on-nativity-plays-bgm55hd3h

A December election would have to be run using two versions of Britain’s register of voters,
posing unique difficulties for the organisers, ministers have been warned.

Returning officers and the Electoral Commission have raised concerns with the Cabinet Office about the logistical problems of a pre-Christmas election, should Boris Johnsonon_ succeed in calling one.^

These include asking schools to reschedule nativity plays to make way for polling stations,
hiring outside lighting to illuminate the stations at night as well as drawing up contingency plans to deal with bad winter weather.

In particular, they have highlighted changes to the electoral register that are due to come into effect on December 1.

Councils are duty-bound to update their electoral registers annually
....
The Cabinet Office has been told that if Mr Johnson were successful in calling an election next week, local authorities would be left in a bind.

They would have to send out polling cards to voters using the old electoral register
but would have to run the election using the new register, at the start of December.

The law stipulates a minimum 25-day period between an election being called and polling day, with cards being sent out at the start of the process.

This would mean that polling cards would be sent out using the old version of the electoral register

while election staff working in polling stations would be checking names off against the new version of the list Confused
< high potential for disenfranchising younger voters especially >

The80sweregreat · 24/10/2019 21:47

I know this is going to sound a bit simplistic but how will an election help anything at all here? Will the tories and Brexit party team up to take the labour seats? Will people vote about other things apart from Brexit?
What if it's another hung parliament?
I m at a loss as to how any of this will help anything really. The whole Brexit debate has completely lost me. I don't think labour have the energy or the fight for a Christmas election.

Bearbehind · 24/10/2019 21:48

You still vote tory because you don't care

No I don’t still vote Tory

This just proves what I was saying about blinkered views

BigChocFrenzy · 24/10/2019 21:49

poster00 💐 That's horrific
Evil bastards Angry

However much we disagree on other issues, I think / hope nearly all regular Westministenders are disgusted with Tory policies
which deliberately make it so much harder for the disabled and other vulnerable people
to claim the benefits they are entitled to and which they need to survive

Bearbehind · 24/10/2019 21:49

Seriously, party tribalism is playing right into Bozo's game stop now and then go back to it after the danger is over

This

squid4 · 24/10/2019 21:50

I work in A&e and I sorta agree with Hoo. I try to put myself in other peoples shoes and work out why they would vote Tory, but confronted with the absolute crisis every day, it is hard sometimes.

Still, fighting don’t help much. A good manifesto and a positive message is the best /only way I suppose...

ListeningQuietly · 24/10/2019 21:50

Bigchoc
OOh blimey, yes, kicking Christmas pantos aside for elections
and
the roll update is always 1st December to debug through December and release to democratic services on 1st January
or it has been for the last few decades

could have "interesting" effects on polling

thecatfromjapan · 24/10/2019 21:50

You haven't squid.

You're very much the oil on troubled water.

💐