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Brexit

Westminstenders: DUP says no

974 replies

TheMShip · 17/10/2019 13:15

I don't really feel qualified to start a Westminstenders thread but we need a new one....

OP posts:
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RedToothBrush · 17/10/2019 16:18

The ferry from NI to the rest of the country could become a new 'Calais Booze Cruise' type journey, where you drive from Holyhead to pick up stuff for personal use that costs a fortune in England due to customs arrangements.

GoodJobSteve · 17/10/2019 16:19

But this new deal very easily could lead to a border between NI and Ireland.

I cannot see a scenario in which the Nationalist community of NI vote for a border, so I don't think this is true.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/10/2019 16:20

"But this new deal very easily could lead to a border between NI and Ireland."

wondering NO, it can't
The backstop is permanent
The only way it ends would be if the Nationalists agree to this - which they never would

FishesaPlenty · 17/10/2019 16:23

BigChoc I was thinking more of the arrangement starting without the agreement of the people of NI.

Looking at it as objectively as I can, it just doesn't sit right that NI, which the GFA guarantees can keep its current 'one eye closed' status for as long as it wishes, can be shifted that little bit closer to ROI and that little bit further away from GB without the people having any say.

I've no particular opinion on the actual outcome (actually the NI part of it seems a good compromise to me if we must have Brexit) but I can't help thinking that if I was on the Loyalist side of the divide I'd probably think I'd had something taken away from me without my permission.

Presumably many loyalists who voted Leave did so to get a bit further away from ROI, not further away from GB.

bellinisurge · 17/10/2019 16:24

@Dontlickthetrolley Grin.
If this deal fails on Saturday, I've got no other ideas to save GFA. Which is all I care about at this point.
I will do anything to save GFA, including supporting this god awful deal.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/10/2019 16:26

This is a good explanation of the new NI backstop

Basically Nationalists have a veto on leaving the backstop

Tony Connellyy@tconnellyRTE*

.... I’ll break it down into Customs and Consent:

1/ Customs: Northern Ireland is legally in the UK’s customs territory, but would it would apply the EU’s rules and procedures on tariffs.

2/ Northern Ireland would also be aligned with the rules of the single market for industrial goods and agri-food products, meaning both regulatory and customs checks and controls on the Irish Sea for goods going from Great Britain to Northern Ireland.

3/ However, the extent of the controls would be reduced thanks to a series of tariff exemptions.

4/ There would be an automatic exemption for personal goods and possessions carried by those travelling back and forth between Northern Ireland and Great Britain, or, for example, if an individual was moving house.

5/ However, there would potentially be a broader category of goods and tradable products that could be exempt from tariffs and controls if there was no risk whatsoever of such goods entering EU’s single market across the land border.

6/ These categories of goods would be decided on in the future by the Joint Committee of EU and UK officials by consensus.

7/ The Joint Committee was established in the original Withdrawal Agreement as a way for both sides to manage the new arrangements.

8/ The intensity and scope of Irish Sea checks would be limited by a risk-analysis. However, the EU would, through the Joint Committee, have a veto over which kinds of goods would enjoy an exemption from tariffs and controls.

9/ There would also be a system of rebates for goods shipped from Great Britain to Northern Ireland if those goods attracted an EU tariff that was higher than the UK tariff.

10/ Consent: The mechanism essentially provides a qualified opt-out of the revised backstop arrangements via the NI Assembly

11/ Northern Ireland would take on the new customs and regulatory regime for four years after the end of the transition period, which is due to conclude at the end of 2020.

12/ At that point Stormont would have to take a view as to whether or not to opt out of the new arrangements

13/ If Stormont voted to opt out, then there would be a two year cooling off period,
during which all sides would have to find an alternative way of complying with the Good Friday Agreement and avoiding a hard border.

14/ If at the end of the two years no alternative was found, then the Protocol would lapse, meaning Ireland would be back to a hard border scenario.

15/ However, if the Stormont Assembly were to collapse during that period,
then the default would be that the Protocol arrangements would continue to apply (ie, the revised backstop)

16/ But there will be also be important variations on how Stormont votes for a potential exit.

17/ If Stormont decides to use a simple majority vote, which is seen as less favourable to the DUP, then if that vote to opt out does not succeed, then Stormont would vote again four years on an opt out.

18/ However, if Stormont decided to go for a cross-community majority vote, which is seen as more favourable to the DUP, and the vote did not pass, then Stormont would have to wait another eight years before having another opt-out vote.

19/ Complex, convoluted, politically fraught, but does it square the circle?
It’s a weighted approach that gives the DUP cover but
the opt out might never take effect because
if a hard border looms SInn Féin could just collapse the assembly and the default is the revised backstop

flouncyfanny · 17/10/2019 16:28

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BoreOfWhabylon · 17/10/2019 16:29

pmk

RedToothBrush · 17/10/2019 16:30

twitter.com/SamuelMarcLowe/status/1184837745228820480
Sam Lowe on NI is good too.

billysboy · 17/10/2019 16:31

a few in Labour have realised they have missed their opportunity

where is the credible plan agreed between all the opposition ?

BigChocFrenzy · 17/10/2019 16:33

Fishes I agree that the DUP have screwed the pooch here
and imo BJ has sold out the Union for party & profit

The first 4 years of the backstop are without any NI consent, at least none I can see

and thereafter both communities would have to agree to end it, which would never happen

And to think that the DUP only supported this whole Brexit business from the start in order to smash the GFA and put off moves to reunification.
I hope at least they get hammered at the next GE - they have so badly cocked things up for their community

imo, this backstop would over the years divide NI from GB and bring it closer to the RoI
Hence, earlier reunification, even if not formal

fedup21 · 17/10/2019 16:36

Why can’t Keir Starmer be Labour leader!?

tobee · 17/10/2019 16:37

...it's the sun shining out of Boris lazy arse!

You see this is why I was desperately searching for a new thread earlier! I need a laugh otherwise it's tins of G&T all day for me! Grin

Thank you!

billysboy · 17/10/2019 16:37

The DUP deserve everything they are about to receive at the forthcoming GE

RedToothBrush · 17/10/2019 16:37

If the DUP had gone with May's deal, it would have ended up passing imo. Others would have jumped on board.

They have hugely miscalculated due to being overly stubborn. Its firmly backfired on them.

Which was predictable.

tobee · 17/10/2019 16:38

I wish I thought that Starmer would want to be leader. But I don't see it happening.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/10/2019 16:40

Also, this WA is not as profitable for NI as May's WA,
in which they basically belonged to both the EU SM and the UK'S "SM"

  • business would have flooded in to take advanatge of this unique position

They should still gain from some GB businesses setting up in NI, as the nearest route to the EU SM,
but the new backstop looks more complicated for business

thecatfromjapan · 17/10/2019 16:42

I very much hope this is voted down.

It puts this government and the next into the hands of hard Brexit/no deal Conservatives (because they got Brexit over the line).

Ultimately, that means years more of being terrorised with the threat of NO Deal/Hard Brexit at the end of any WA.

It's a nightmare.

Alastair Campbell @campbellclaret

On Twitter agreed with me:

'ERG backing @BorisJohnson deal because he has made clear to them it keeps No Deal on the table. We are dealing with NI split off then hardest Brexit or no deal down the line. No progressive MP could possibly support this.'

wondering7777 · 17/10/2019 16:43

All I know is that as a remainer, this looks like a harder Brexit than TM’s deal and a victory for leavers. I hope it’s voted down on Saturday.

RedToothBrush · 17/10/2019 16:46

I am struggling more with this deal than May's thats for sure.

I am afraid of No Deal. But this deal is so bad, I can't get angry at anyone for not voting for it either like I did with May's tbh.

I expect it to be voted down.

I'd much rather have May's Deal.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/10/2019 16:51

The light at the end of the negotiating "tunnel" now looks like the light of the train that is going to run over the DUP

Basilpots · 17/10/2019 16:53

BCF a not so Free trade deal with the US is my concern too.

Trump has made it quite clear he intends to use trade as a weapon against other countries. Tariffs against China and the EU the threats to Turkey’s economy in that ludicrous letter. The damage that could be done to the NHS and home based industries by a trade deal that has not been scrutinised in any way by Parliament is extremely worrying.

We have LIZ TRUSS in charge of our trade deals fgs. This has the potential to be disastrous.

CendrillonSings · 17/10/2019 16:54

I'd much rather have May's Deal.

Remember the celebrations by some when May’s Deal got voted down? That worked out well, didn’t it?

After that experience, those hoping for the Deal to go down on Saturday should be careful what they wish for...

BigChocFrenzy · 17/10/2019 16:55

I also expect it to be voted down,
after which I hope they are able to vote for May's WA

  • there have been reports that some Tory Cabinet ministers and many MPs would force May's WA back on the agenda if No Deal was imminent,
but I don't know if they would do so if we get yet another extension - to waste again
MarshaBradyo · 17/10/2019 16:58

If it doesn’t pass then surely No Deal goes up in likelihood not down

Juncker was just commenting on his end of things- there’s a deal so no need for extension