Westminstenders: DUP says no

[TheMShip]

I don't really feel qualified to start a Westminstenders thread but we need a new one....

But May’s deal was awful and was turned down three times because nobody wanted it.

To bring it back now just because it’s slightly less awful than the latest one is insane.

We need to revoke and think about this properly.

where is the credible plan agreed between all the opposition ? They are clueless idiots

Blimey. Late thanks today
Thanks theM

A major reason why the Brexshitters were able to pivot so quickly to No Deal after the referendum was because Remainers had so thoroughly trashed the EFTA option during the campaign

After that, softer Remainers and soft Leavers coudn't manage to make EFTA look sensible

Remainers later also trashed May's WA, so much so that it would be tough to get passed now or to put in a PV vs Remain

Hardline Remainers like Blair, Maugham and some current MPs furiously trash anything that looks like a soft Brexit, because they think it would be more likely than No Deal to get support
and they want only Remain - whatever the cost, whatever the risks

I am curious about how Kate Hoey will vote. Her pals Farage and the DUP don't seem very impressed. If the Fatberg doesn't get her vote does he get any Labour votes? And do the Labour leavers abstain or vote against?

Oh and belated A as the option, it really E and F seems more plausible than any NI technological border at the moment

fedup If MPs wanted to Revoke, then they would need to organise a majority to do so
Currrently, it is not there
certainly the Labour Leave MPs would vote against

I know I will get flamed for this, but while Brexit is first and foremost a Tory/Cameron mess, I truly believe it could have been stopped if we had a more credible and capable opposition - and I do hugely blame Corbyn and others for that.

Alberto Nardelli @albertonardelli
EUCO: Senior EU27 government official tells me that the feeling is that an extension would, if requested, ultimately be given — but:

- shouldn't be taken for granted (need a clear reason)

- would require a debate among leaders, and several reserved judgement today

No flaming from me wondering.

Let's face it, a lot of people are responsible for this balls up.

iOS anyone else finding it almost impossible to post?

It seems my 'new post' function is broken. ☹️

Anyway, May's WA wasn't very good - but it was good enough to get put to the people, versus Remain.

Sadly - as we know - there weren't the numbers in the HoC for that option, at that point.

I think the numbers are pretty much there now.

Unfortunately, it means putting this deal to the public.

Which is ... alarming.

I do think Remain would win. Those strongly affected (NI) will vote - & we'll probably see more voter turn out in Scotland, too.

It's pretty grim, for sure. But there is hope.

And, yes, MPs should have got their act together along time since. When the indicative votes were held would have been good.

But Brexit - as we know - is a process of attrition. We always knew that. It was a project riven with ridiculous contradictions: 48% of the country didn't want Brexit; 52% wanted something unclear.

It turns out that the 52% were quite divided as to what they wanted.

Add into that the fact that the two major parties are in the process of a turbulent inner re-organisation and ...

So, Brexit really is a process of wearing people down, through being shown that Brexit is an impossibly divided and flawed project.

And they do have to be shown because they just don't believe it yet. 🤷‍♀️

But we are slowly getting to the point of a referendum - and in a referendum, Remain will win.

Upon a bit of reflection I really am conflicted about supporting this deal. Having said I would I think I'm gradually changing my mind tbh.

Alberto Nardelli@AlbertoNardelli

EUCO draft conclusions currently make no mention of extension.

However, this does not mean an extension is blocked or would not not granted.

Simply, that a formal position is unlikely today.
Indeed, I understand EU27 leaders are discussing their respective views on extension.

But we are slowly getting to the point of a referendum - and in a referendum, Remain will win.

I'm not that confident I'm afraid

Pmk

I do think Remain would win. Those strongly affected (NI) will vote - & we'll probably see more voter turn out in Scotland, too.

I read this in the Guardian earlier, which I thought was encouraging!

“204 polls for the past two years have put remain ahead, only seven for leave, with 15 ties – according to YouGov analysis for the Evening Standard.”

If - and it’s a huge if - we can get that second referendum, I really think remain would win it.

@wondering7777 , I agree with you but I'm afraid you will get a "Why are you blaming Corbyn" response from his supporters on here.

red The analysis of this WA is that the economic consequences after transition, assuming the Tories get their v minimal FTA
are v similar to No Deal, wrt loss of GDP etc

I don't see where the votes are for a PV, unless the Tories suddenly take it up

Also, âfaik we still have the problem that only a govt can allocate money - the Opposition cannot authorise funding for a PV, even if they had the votes

I'd be surprised if the courts want to get involved in such a fundamental constitutional change

If the rebels want a PV they are finally going to have to choose a PM

• even if that is Corbyn - to call it and allocate the funds

@wondering7777 , I agree with you but I'm afraid you will get a "Why are you blaming Corbyn" response from his supporters on here.

Yep, fully expecting a flaming. But it’s true...

The first 4 years of the backstop are without any NI consent

That's all I can see as well. I don't care whether the DUP support it or not, in my opinion that's not in the spirit of the GFA, or supportable in any way from a democratic point of view even without the peace concerns.

It's changing the status quo of one part of the UK , in a different manner to the rest of the UK, without their consent. How can anyone support that? Even without considering the GFA implications.

I do think Remain would win a referendum.

And I think Johnson and the ERG know that. And will consequently resist a referendum.

As for Labour? Well, I will always wonder about the difference an Opposition confidently advocating Remain would have made. And the difference a more popular Opposition would have made. 🤷‍♀️

It would be good to hear talk of a GNU again. That seems to have gone a bit quiet.

MPs are only human and I think there's a bit of panic in Parliament. That's one of the advantages of all this running around trying to get a last minute Deal, & terrorising people with talk of no Deal - it acts to make people panic, forget about long-term strategy, and rush into short-term thinking.

I, personally, think Parliament needs to take a deep breath and calm down.

I have been drinking so that might be bollocks.

A major reason why the Brexshitters were able to pivot so quickly to No Deal after the referendum was because Remainers had so thoroughly trashed the EFTA option during the campaign

Didn’t happen. Most Brexiters I encountered didn’t know what EFTA was until well after the referendum, some still don’t.

The real reason is that they were promised Leave by Leave with no details. Any form of soft Brexit is ‘not really leaving’.

I agree about the PV, red
Even if we somehow get a PV, say from interim PM Corbyn, I would be very worried about the result

Remain are still very divided,
whereas Leave will sacrifice anything else for Brexit, even the Union, even the economy - and they woukld have dirty money and psyops on their side again