Westminstenders: DUP says no

[TheMShip]

I don't really feel qualified to start a Westminstenders thread but we need a new one....

just give the people a bloody break for a bit

But how to do that. On any scenario (even revoke) won't be years more wrangling?

Johnson's WA- wrangling about the future trading relationship and the LPF. Negotiating with Trumps team plus 100s of new trade agreements.

No deal-wrangling about the future EU trading relationship and the LPF plus all the old chestnuts -Irish border, ECJ, everything plus 100s of new trade agreements.

Revoke- internal wrangling and endless faraging plus trying to rebuild trust internationally.

But they'll be the ones doing the wrangling, won't they? Every. Single. Detail. Doesn't need discussing with the public. There might be updates, but it won't be so in-your-face and tense as it has been recently.

At present, everyone is in a heightened state of tension due to uncertainty. If the deal does go through, it will reduce that tension. Hence giving people a break.

The public's freedom to choose iis already constrained by international laws that affect the UK

I don’t see many people wanting to overturn international laws such as invading other countries or commiting genocide, and if they did we would clearly have a massive problem! Therefore in practical terms, I don’t have an issue with international law as there’s a general consensus for this, but theoretically the UK could always withdraw from the UN if it needed to (not that i can imagine this ever happening).

My basic principle is that all laws should have the democratic consent of the public. However well meaning, no elite should seek to impose its will, and it’s law, against the public. That’s basic democracy and I find it deeply concerning that many people who call themselves liberals are only democrats when it suits them.

*Every single detail doesn't need discussing with the public.
*
I think one of the reasons we got into this mess is that we have evolved into a society where insufficient detail is discussed.

Morning all. Another one awake early here thanks to dd deciding to go in the shower at 6am. I've just been catching up and having cuddles with borrowed cat.
I'm ignoring all the voting intentions as it only serves to confuse and wind us up. I'm just holding on until tomorrow as speculating is making me tense. It's impossible to call at the moment but I really don't get how things would work between NI and ROI.

Speaker votes for the status quo. No idea how Bercow would interpret that...

you're' saying you're happy that the woman who told me that she voted Leave to get rid of all the immigrants and that England wasn't like when she grew up in the 50's is a voice to be listened to and trusted?

You defeat such opinions at the ballot box, not by taking away their democratic rights. Otherwise where does it stop? Who decides what matters the public can decide? If we concede there are substantial areas of public policy that the public has no say on, because “we know best”, liberalism start to become strikingly similar to the communist regimes of the past. It seems democracy is under threat from this emerging paternalistic liberalism as much as from the right... troubling times.

If you lose (and I lost in the Referendum as a Remain voter) you need to improve your arguments and powers of persuasion, not take away democracy.

I think one of the reasons we got into this mess is that we have evolved into a society where insufficient detail is discussed.

So you want every single tiny little detail with regards negotiation and the deal discussed and published? What's the point in having an elected body to do this work if we then have to get involved in the minutiae of it? That's like a client hiring me but then wanting to get involved in the work as well, which is pointless.

I don't want to get involved in, or read lengthy, trade deals, personally. I have enough reading and analysis at work, I don't want to then stress over someone else's job too!

They can / should give us the highlights and some detail, but we really do not require ALL the ins and outs.

The process to this point has been a tough mental slog for everyone. The country's mental health is in decline, with Brexit being given as a reason for this. IF this deal passes, it takes no deal off the table (for now at least) and people can just relax a little bit and try to enjoy Christmas.

Like I said, I'm conflicted about what's best, in conjunction with what's available / realistic / pragmatic at this point.

@Oakenbeach, I agree with you re your point on democracy and doing better with persuasive arguments. Parties / sides lose because they've failed to give a convincing argument to the voting public (and because of FPTP, but that's a separate issue).

Women died for the vote. Removing that vote because you think that the voter is 'wrong' is a slippery bloody slope indeed!

Just emailed my LD mp asking her to vote for the deal. My own view is that not passing this does indeed risk no deal. I hate that I'm adding to Boriss credibility but I see no other effective way forward.

@TemporaryPermanent , done the same in a letter to my Remain voting Corbyn love/hating Front Bench Labour MP.

What's the point in having an elected body to do this work if we then have to get involved in the minutiae of it?

Agreed but that presupposes you can trust the government and I really really do not.

It's about choice isn't it. If the government is open about information you can choose to get involved in the minutiae or not.

You have to fight for that choice If you have a government that is run by people who suppress impact assessments, fight court cases to avoid parliamentary votes, illegally suspend parliament etc.

Speaker votes:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpeakerDenison%27ss_rule

Hopefully that's worked as a link. If not, this is a snapshot

The principle is to always vote in favour of further debate, or, where it has been previously decided to have no further debate or in some specific instances, to vote in favour of the status quo.[1][2] Thus, the Speaker will vote:
• against the final reading of a bill (and against holding such readings immediately rather than in the future, to allow for time to consider the matter)
• in favour of earlier readings of bills (and in favour of holding such readings immediately rather than in the future, to allow for further debate)
• against amendments to bills
• against motions of no confidence
• in favour of disagreeing with amendments made by the House of Lords

Bercow voted against an amendment in April, so I'm sure is following these rules. Not sure where that falls on the withdrawal agreement though. Presumably against as it would stop further debate???

No, nor do I trust them. But what could we actually DO about it if we didn't like what they're doing, practically?

The petitions, demos, writing to MPs etc that we've all taken part with, what impact have they had on the direction Brexit has gone in? Fuck all! What would be better and more effective, is an Opposition which actually does its job and holds the government to account. Not the totally and utterly opposition we've had in recent years.

Had we had this, maybe all of our efforts would have had more effect. Maybe we wouldn't even have had to try so fucking hard to get heard if the opposition had done its bloody job.

I'm not saying we shouldn't have done what we did to try to get heard, just that we shouldn't / wouldn't have to do it if politics wasn't broken right now.

What's happening is a symptom of an ineffectual Parliament which is absolutely unable to do what's right for the country, choosing to put party first. That's what needs fixing. That's where we need the change to take place. More Jess Phillips and fewer Peter Bones would've seen this pan out in a far, far different way.

I want to channel my involvement into changing politics, not reading trade deals.

I'm probably not getting my point across, but what I'm trying to say is that whatever action and efforts we put in, I want them to get positive results. We're all short of time; let's make what time we have and efforts we make as effective as possible.

@Oakenbeach
I agree with your principles. However, I think the EU is such a complex issue that it is really difficult to carry out normal political persuasion in relation to it. Politics is now reduced largely to the politics of emotion only.
Staying it in is not something you can get emotional about unless you really understand what the EU does for you. Hence, generally, younger, educated people understand membership & will march & vote accordingly.

Conversely, it's really easy to emotionalise leaving for a population which is ( gross generalisation alert) ill educated & liable to jingosim. Hence no deal is an easy aspiration to sell even though all the evidence shows it's a very bad thing.

A ref should never have been allowed as a result ( unless super majority).

representative democracy should work better - the representative may be elected on an emotional response but is supposed to use their heads when representing their constituents.

That's why I think Labour needs a leader like Blair - not because of the politics necessarily but because of the charisma & trust he was able to engender amongst voters (& with his MPs).

Rejoining the EU then needs to be on all progressive manifestos as part of a range of policies sold by attractive politicians & you might just start to change public opinion.

@CendrillonSings gosh schadenfreude is never a decent attitude - & yet you admit to it.

^

Not the totally and utterly useless opposition we've had in recent years.

Hurrah for missing words out!

Driedlimes, I think we're sharing a point about the failure of Parliament / representative democracy.

What would be better and more effective, is an Opposition which actually does its job and holds the government to account. Not the totally and utterly opposition we've had in recent years.

Completely agree.

With respect to the petitions, demos, writing to MPs etc that we've all taken part with, what impact have they had on the direction Brexit has gone in? Fuck all! Yes it feels like that but Remain does now lead most polls and LibDem support has grown. If more of the disengaged and disinterested became involved it would change the direction.

No way I’d be telling an MP to vote for this and I work in an industry that will be in chaos if we no deal. What Boris is doing is forcing the uk to take a crappy deal, because it’s less chaotic than no deal. I wouldn’t be upset with an MP if they made a considered decision to vote for it but equally think they have every right to push for a better future for the uk. On this I will trust in their decision because I frankly wouldn’t like to have to make it!

We’ll be at the mercy of the tories if this goes through and that really scares me. I don’t trust them to do anything in the interests of the UK. I have accepted that our quality of life will just gradually decline now, regardless.

From last night

Alex Wickham @alexwickham
Govt preparing measures to support Labour MPs thinking of backing deal

Number of Lab MPs considering voting for it is higher than previous estimates

Including some new names in Leave seats who didn’t back May’s deal, didn’t sign pro-deal letter and aren’t replying to texts...

And from the FT.

Interesting timing

Patrick Maguire @patrickkmaguire
Tory source says Mark Field has just told his constituency association AGM that he won’t stand at the next election

@PigeonofDoom , totally get your sentiments here. But we can claw back workers' rights women's rights and environmental protection with a decent Labour (?) government. Once peace is gone in NI it would be gone for good. Yes this is a shit back of a fag packet WA2.0 but if it saves GFA, it is worth it.

A border in the sea will not mean peace in NI though, will it. If it takes 10 years for labour to get into power, where will be then? Look at the things the tories did in the 80s/90s that we have never recovered from- council house sell off, pension deregulation, binning fire regs for buildings, the nhs! Go to a former pit town and ask if we can reverse the damage the tories do. Some things we can’t recover from.

Just heard John McDonnell saying the same thing on radio 4. Not often I agree with him