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Brexit

Westminstenders: DUP says no

974 replies

TheMShip · 17/10/2019 13:15

I don't really feel qualified to start a Westminstenders thread but we need a new one....

OP posts:
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thecatfromjapan · 17/10/2019 18:03

It makes me furious, all over again, just thinking about it.

About all the 'could have's and ethical failures.

It just makes me furious thinking how we have all been so badly failed.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/10/2019 18:03

cat I've long thought that the rebels should replace BJ

It is dangerous to leave him as PM, with all the executive powers that brings
They only need to miscalculate once and he could No Deal

If they actually want to achieve anything, whether that is a PV, or anything else, they need to have the guts to do so directly,
instead of trying to use BJ as a hand-puppet, with help from the courts

They must first decide if Corbyn as PM is worse than Brexit
There is no time to lose, with any of the E27 able to veto the next extension or the next
The E27 want to see that those opposed to No Deal actually have the guts and the votes to do something else

BigChocFrenzy · 17/10/2019 18:06

imo, May's course was fixed in the few months after the ref,
when Remainers and soft Leavers couldn't unite on anything - because EFTA was toxic - and left a power vaccum for the No Dealers to take over

By January, it was all too late
If she'd tried then for soft Brexit, she's have been toppled

thecatfromjapan · 17/10/2019 18:07

BigChoc And there we have the problem with the GNU again. ☹️

Personally, I don't care who leads it.

But 🤷‍♀️

And the irony is that, if all the opposing factions could agree, we probably would be watching the death throes of Brecit right now. ☹️

TatianaLarina · 17/10/2019 18:10

I don’t think we are disagreeing, I think we have a slightly different interpretation of why.

You think it was because she knew the Tories wouldn’t accept soft Brexit, and you may be right, but I think it was more a question of personal narrowness with a dash of stupidity.

A different personality could have sold a compromise position to the Tories and the country.

tobee · 17/10/2019 18:13

Can someone explain to a really dim person (I.e me, I need this in simple terms) why Varadkar is ok with this, please?

ARoomWithoutADoor · 17/10/2019 18:14

PMK

Option E).

And, what theElements said.

Peregrina · 17/10/2019 18:17

But we are slowly getting to the point of a referendum - and in a referendum, Remain will win.

Not until every last vote is counted will we be able to say that. It occurs to me, this might be why the Tories are now keen on voter ID - those who turn out are more likely now to be Remainers, so let's disenfranchise as many as possible.

I am afraid I agree, that if Corbyn had been a better Leader of the Opposition we wouldn't be in this mess now, but ultimately it comes back to Cameron.

Peregrina · 17/10/2019 18:19

and left a power vaccum for the No Dealers to take over

Remember that the PLP was more interested in staging a coup against Corbyn. When they had an open goal and could have slaughtered the Tories.

prettybird · 17/10/2019 18:19

Wondering - GNU = Government of National Unity Smile

....the idea for which at the moment is failing because none of the other parties will thole the idea of Corbyn as leader, even got a short period. (I think the SNP might have said that they would tolerate it, but not sure).

Alternatives suggested are Ken Clark as Father of the House, Bercow Wink and (inspired suggestion from BigChoc Grin) Lady Herman as an independent NI Unionist who actually believes in Remain and speaking for all of NI (which the DUP don't - as she had regularly pointed out Wink) and who is retiring at the next GE so has no further political aspirations. Shock

Peregrina · 17/10/2019 18:21

Will praying for a miracle work, do you think?

dontcallmelen · 17/10/2019 18:21

Thecat I agree with every word of your post (17.57) it actually made me cry I find it so hard to believe that this is what the UK could be reduced to.

thecatfromjapan · 17/10/2019 18:23

BigChoc And there weTatiana I see what you mean now.
Sorry - obviously not reading well at the moment.
Yes, I think you are almost certainly correct about that.

I suppose I think that a part of that narrowness is a (in hindsight) bizarre willingness to adhere to loyalty to her Party, like a dutiful but dim daughter, rather than taking on the role of leading from the front, being persuasive and forceful, for something that was more expansively ethical.

There is so much to tell us that May is narrow, not expansive.

And, yes, her period in the Hone Office does suggest she is of the narrow end of the Conservative Psrty. So may well have had sympathies in common with the narrower views of the electorate, the Conservative Party members and it's MPs.

thecatfromjapan · 17/10/2019 18:26

Sorry, that was @Tatiana.

My posting function is a mess and I can't see what I'm writing.

I have no idea why it's gone pear-shaped.

SwedishEdith · 17/10/2019 18:29

Remember that the PLP was more interested in staging a coup against Corbyn. When they had an open goal and could have slaughtered the Tories.

I'm not sure about that. They knew then, as now, that he was as ineffective as a leader as May. A swift "kill" and all could have been different as focus would solely be on slaughtering the Tories as well as arguing for Remain.

FishesaPlenty · 17/10/2019 18:31

I'm sat here worrying about the future of the UK and I glance to the right to 'Trending Now' and see 'Should I have shared my garlic bread?'.

At least I've laughed today. Grin

Motheroffourdragons · 17/10/2019 18:38

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

thecatfromjapan · 17/10/2019 18:38

Yes, that's how I feel about the PLP failed coup, SwedishEdith. ☹️

The Independent is reporting that Oliver Letwin has secured the right to put an amendment - to be voted for/against on Saturday- for a Referendum on this Deal.

DGRossetti · 17/10/2019 18:39

Can someone explain to a really dim person (I.e me, I need this in simple terms) why Varadkar is ok with this, please?

TL;DR - it's much worse for the UK than Ireland.

thecatfromjapan · 17/10/2019 18:39

I wish I was one of the people who worry more about garlic bread than Brexit, fishes.

I have such a bad (Brexit) headache right now. Sad

borntobequiet · 17/10/2019 18:41

Could someone add an amendment along the lines of: if we don’t pass this deal, bring back May’s deal and have another go? Or put it (May’s deal) to a PV at least, vs Remain? Or is that a completely stupid idea?

54321go · 17/10/2019 18:42

For those curious about a GNU

DGRossetti · 17/10/2019 18:43

www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/10/17/saturday-is-the-most-important-day-in-the-entire-brexit-saga

politics.co.uk
Saturday is the most important day in the entire Brexit saga
Ian Dunt
6-8 minutes

Here it comes. After years of constant battling, constitutional crises, divided families, political implosions, and crunching, endless negotiations, events will finally reach their crescendo on Saturday. As hundreds of thousands of Remainers congregate outside parliament to demand a People's Vote, MPs inside the building will decide on Britain's fate.

We now, for the first time in a long time, have a pretty clear picture of what's about to happen.

The government will put down a motion on the deal Boris Johnson has just negotiated with the EU. MPs will try to attach an amendment accepting the deal on the condition of a referendum. If it passes, that will probably happen. If it fails, and MPs back Johnson's deal, Brexit is happening by the October 31st deadline.

If MPs reject the deal, the Benn Act will trigger. There will be an extension of Article 50 and, in all likelihood, an election. Don't listen to the attempts to dispel this notion from the British or EU side. They both want the deal, so they need to pretend otherwise, but the basic reality hasn't changed. British law says a request must be made. The EU will not allow itself to be responsible for no-deal, so it will grant it.

In that election, Johnson will run on the back of his deal. If he won, he'll push it through. If he lost, Labour would renegotiate and then hold a referendum on its deal.

This is not the same as the three meaningful votes held under Theresa May. It is much tighter. Johnson can carry more Brexiters with him.

But for the time being, the odds are - just about - against him. The DUP has held firm and will vote against. The ERG are mostly going with it, but some of them will probably waver. Most purged Tories will probably back the deal, but some may not. Some pro-deal Labour MPs will vote for the deal, but most will not.

That's unlikely to be enough. Without the DUP, Johnson needs every group to support him. But the DUP rejection makes that a hard sell. It offers an out to those who are wavering.

On the basis of objective reality, which is not at all a good guide to how MPs will vote, this deal should fail on the basis of the principles parliamentarians have said they hold.

It creates a customs and regulatory border in the Irish Sea. Johnson once suggested this was a kind of annexation. May said no British prime minister could ever agree to it. Jacob Rees-Mogg said he couldn't support a withdrawal agreement without the backing of the DUP. And yet here we are.

Technically Northern Ireland would stay in the UK customs territory, but this is a legal nicety. The truth is this: there will be large scale checks between Britain and Ireland. Those will be on regulations and on customs.

The UK's trading territory is being carved up. Those who said that it had to stay united whatever happened with Brexit should, by force of logic, vote against the deal.

That goes for purged Tories too. Many of them have said they would vote for any deal. That's perfectly consistent. But for some of them, the repercussions of this deal may be too much to tolerate.

The implications for the UK go well beyond what happens to Northern Ireland. Think about Scotland. It, like Northern Ireland, voted against Brexit. It is now being forced into the harshest interpretation of the vote against its will, but without the protections offered to Northern Ireland. There is no moral consistency to that position. It is as if Westminster were trying to write the SNP's independence campaign for it.

The group of pro-deal Labour MPs must also take a realistic look at what is being proposed. This is not single market membership. It is not even customs union membership. It will hurt the British economy and workers worst of all.

This group recently made level playing field provisions a red line. These are guarantees that the UK will stick to the EU rules on things like workers' rights and environmental protections. Johnson shifted on this overnight and put them in the deal. That could tempt Labour MPs to vote for it.

But look closer. The level playing field provisions were moved from the withdrawal agreement document, which is a legal text, and into the political declaration document, which is not. All it really constitutes is a recognition that the EU will insist on this if the UK wants a free trade agreement. It is not a legal guarantee. It is a recognition of the EU's future negotiating position being recognised in law.

So what does this really mean? It kicks the battle over what the UK does into the future. If it was passed, Britain would enter into the real debate: does it want to enter the embrace of America or the EU? It's going to have to pick one. Every law of logic and trading reality means it should pick its large, closer neighbour, but that is not necessarily how politics works anymore. That battle will take place. There is no guarantee of level playing fields. The Labour pro-dealers red line has not been satisfied.

That's the state of play. On paper, this deal should fail. But things are moving fast. Everything is happening very quickly. The EU and UK have hammered something together in days that they'll have to live with for decades. Parliament is being given just one day to debate it. It is a quite insane state of affairs, but that is how it is happening. And in that frenzied atmosphere, people can slip either way.

And yet in the back of their heads, they might well be thinking: how will this look in a few years time? How will this deal be considered in the future? And it is surely the case that it will be despised. It is a painful compromise which will make the UK poorer and weaker, made by an unelected prime minister with no majority, in which both sides - Leaver or Remainer - will be able to claim that it could have been much better if things had been done their way.

Either way, we're entering the crunch point now. Saturday will be the most momentous and nerve-shredding day since the Brexit vote itself. It all comes down to this.

Hoooo · 17/10/2019 18:46

Well.
Off to pick up more inhalers for ds1 tomorrow and fill up the car.
Unfortunately mum now has a special diet so need to take her shopping too.
Sigh.

TatianaLarina · 17/10/2019 18:48

@thecatfromjapan

I suppose I think that a part of that narrowness is a (in hindsight) bizarre willingness to adhere to loyalty to her Party, like a dutiful but dim daughter, rather than taking on the role of leading from the front, being persuasive and forceful, for something that was more expansively ethical.

That’s a good point.

As Jim Hacker (Yes Minister) once said “I am their leader. I must follow them”.