Ireland and your vote.

[RuggerHug]

I am genuinely interested in all opinions here and I really hope that comes across. I don't want to start arguments or stir up hatred or insults. I've been on these boards for awhile and I know I've probably been quite ranty at times. I really want to not be here, so I'd like to ask everyone who voted, leave or remain, the following and I'd really appreciate your answers/thoughts.

Did ROI and NI play a part in your decision to vote whatever way?

Did the effect of a vote either way to NI and ROI occur at all, if so how?

Since the result, did anyone have a change of heart/become more sure of their vote based on what came out regarding ROI and NI afterwards?

Have you any thoughts on how we've been during it all/how our media portrays activities in the UK(if you're aware of what is said/shown here).

Hopefully this won't come across as trying to start a fight but, in all of this, did you care about us and the fallout or did you consider it not the UKs/anyone elses problem?

For disclosure, I'm Irish, in ROI, spent a lot of time at the border/in NI before the GFA, not as much after. Anyone I know in the UK that had a vote voted remain, I know 1 Leave voter(who lives in ROI).

Thanks in advance for sharing your thoughts.

Mystery

Inadvertently, I think better than any Peoples vote advocate, you have made the case for either revoking or a 2nd vote.

People clearly (overall) didn't know what they were voting for (due to lack of & misinformation) and the issues were too complex, especially they were more interested in Love Island than Ulster.

Thank you

Again I repeat no one is stopping the UK from leaving

If all WA proposals are rejected by UK parties that want to cancel Brexit how is it possible to make a deal?

Labour is the worst offender. Page 24 of their manifesto was that they would honour the referendum result. So how is rejection of the WA almost unanimously three times consistent with their manifesto?

The WA kept UK in both the CU and SM and had a backstop. So what was in the WA that labour did not like? Obvious answer of course. Labour were pushing for a general election.

Watch any episode of Question Time before the European Elections on 23 May 2019 and you will see the labour MPs promoting a general election. Now they don't want an election as they are third in the polls.

So my view is reason UK did not leave EU on 29 March 2019 was labour's desire for a general election by thwarting brexit.

but if they want to continue to trade with the EU they have to agree to a deal that works for both sides

If UK leaves the EU without a deal trade continues under WTO until new deals are made.

The WA kept UK in both the CU and SM and had a backstop

No it did not.

you have made the case for either revoking or a 2nd vote

How?

Revoke can only be done by vote from electorate in a general election.

2nd vote ruled out at the moment. Many difficulties with a further referendum.

What question would be asked?

How does government convince voters the result will be honoured when they ignored the previous referendum result? The pre referendum leaflet that cost the taxpayers £9 million stated the referendum result would be implemented.

especially they were more interested in Love Island than Ulster

As AthollPlace posts point out people vote on what affects them directly. If people think reality TV is more important than NI a d the GFA that is entirely their decision.

As AthollPlace posts point out people vote on what affects them directly. If people think reality TV is more important than NI a d the GFA that is entirely their decision.

This argument makes no sense.
The referendum didn't ask them to vote on reality TV.
And reality TV doesn't affect them directly. Brexit does and will.

If people seriously think reality TV is more important than international peace treaties, a return to sectarian violence, economic decline, job losses, a huge decrease in worldwide geopolitical influence and the risk of a breakdown in the UK's constitution, and if they don't take the time to inform themselves, then they should perhaps not vote in referendums of such magnitude.

You know what@MysteryTripAgain , it isn't in that document. You are right.
Perhaps it fell within the category of bleeding fucking obvious. But clearly not as you are down playing its significance and others on here appear tremendously surprised about it. And refuse to accept that it's of any significance because they didn't realise it.

The referendum didn't ask them to vote on reality TV

Didn't ask them to vote on NI or GFA either. Question was should UK remain in the EU? Two options were given. Yes or no.

And reality TV doesn't affect them directly. Brexit does and will

So they looked at the arguments presented by both leave and remain campaign and chose the arguments they thought suited their purposes best.

and if they don't take the time to inform themselves, then they should perhaps not vote in referendums of such magnitude

Do really think each of the 33.5 million who voted in the 2016 referendum spent, months, weeks, days or even hours researching in libraries and internet; economic data, treasury forecasts, supply chain mechanisms, etc?

No way did that happen. Choice will have been made on what they read in the press and saw on TV plus arguments presented on programmes such as news night and question time.

Perhaps it fell within the category of bleeding fucking obvious

Might be obvious to those from the island of Ireland and those affected by the troubles, but not necessarily to others. As AthollPlace points out people vote on what affects them directly.

And refuse to accept that it's of any significance because they didn't realise it

Whether people realized or not, it's unlikely to influence their decision when voting if it does not affect them.

I can't be bothered.
Life is too short to patiently unpick such warped responses and reiterate, reformulate or repeat what I actually posted.

What @AuldAlliance said

Mystery

You made the argument to revoke/2nd vote because you successfully argued folk didn't really know what the xxxx they were voting for in 2016.

If that is still likely to be the case, then we should revoke because a return to violence in NI just isn't worth it, unless of course leavers will volunteer their own kids to join the army?

"Revoke can only be done by vote from electorate in a general election."

Wherever did you get that idea from? Revoke is done by the Prime Minister. It's the easiest thing in the world: all he has to do is write to the EU and tell them.

You made the argument to revoke/2nd vote because you successfully argued folk didn't really know what the xxxx they were voting for in 2016

How? Vote was leave or remain. No caveats attached.

unless of course leavers will volunteer their own kids to join the army?

Those who join the armed forces know they can be sent into battle at any time

It's the easiest thing in the world: all he has to do is write to the EU and tell them

And accept their career in politics will end instantly and their party will never be elected ever again.

People can change their mind if they wish, but needs to be done by vote. Then there is no argument. MPs taking it upon themselves to decide people have changed their mind is wrong.

Never forget that;

Pre referendum leaflet stated the result of the referendum would be implemented

498 MPs voted to invoke Article 50.

Both Conservatives and labour manifestos started the referendum result of 2016 would be honoured

If that is still likely to be the case, then we should revoke because a return to violence in NI just isn't worth it, unless of course leavers will volunteer their own kids to join the army?

I agree. I just cannot understand what is so so wrong and so awful about the status quo that we have a government and people that are hell bent on economic turmoil and a return to violence in NI. The whole thing is bonkers.

Also thinking any border checks in NI should be manned by hardline Brexiters, specifically Johnson himself who likened it to the congestion charge

Mystery

You can back track all you like but you've stated time and time again that folk didn't consider x y or z... therefore with such a vital decision, it seems that the UK populous were either not educated or didn't care.

A mistake has been made, so we revoke.

As can be seen by the LD revoke stance, it doesn't mean the end of their political careers at all, though BJ's is finished because he either extends or no-deals into economic chaos.

Those who join the armed forces know they can be sent into battle at any time

And those of us who live in N Ireland? The people in the border towns aren't joining the army but they still might have the pleasure of seeing their towns attacked and snipers hiding in the hedges. Like it was 30 years ago. They just have to accept it I suppose, and stop being so selfish...

If people seriously think reality TV is more important than international peace treaties
It’s easier to understand and more interesting. Most people are far removed from politics. They don’t want to spend their limited free time digging into heavy topics - they want light entertainment.

As Mystery said, decisions will have been made based on information presented in a simple bite size format such as newspapers or Question Time. People voted based on how they believed the key issues affected them personally. I know a number of people who voted Leave solely because they though it meant the Poles would have to go home, and others who voted Remain solely because their employer trades with the EU and they didn’t want their job to be at risk. No consideration of the wider issues at all, just a simple “I can’t afford to lose my job so I’m voting Remain”, or ”There’ll be more work for me when the Poles are gone so I’m voting Leave”.

So Irish UK terrorists get to call the shots!
Fixed that for you Fatshedra. The terrorists who will make the most of Brexit are born and live in the UK.

Did ROI and NI play a part in your decision to vote whatever way? Yes.

Did the effect of a vote either way to NI and ROI occur at all, if so how? Yes. (although, isn't this really the same question as above?)

Since the result, did anyone have a change of heart/become more sure of their vote based on what came out regarding ROI and NI afterwards? More sure.

Have you any thoughts on how we've been during it all/how our media portrays activities in the UK(if you're aware of what is said/shown here).
The Irish press seems to me to be thoughtful and nuanced about it.

I voted remain. I've always lived in mainland UK and currently live in London. When I first moved here there was still a 'no bins' rule for tube stations. And I'm old enough to remember the bomb at the Tory party conference and the attacks on the City of London and Manchester. As well as, obviously, the activity/murders etc in NI itself. And of course I remember the GFA and the (long) run-up to it.

I think you'd have to have had your head in a bucket for Ireland/Northern Ireland/the GFA not to have crossed your mind at all when deciding how to vote.

yeah, yeah:

i just want poles to go back to poland.
and
my employer trades with the eu and seamless trade is better for job security.

exactly the same. no difference here.

You can back track all you like but you've stated time and time again that folk didn't consider x y or z... therefore with such a vital decision, it seems that the UK populous were either not educated or didn't care

Spell out the x, y and z.

The question was whether or not to remain in the EU. No caveats that people should have considered x, y and z before they voted.

As can be seen by the LD revoke stance, it doesn't mean the end of their political careers at all

Do you think that Jo Swinson's public statement that if there was another vote to leave she would ignore it is democratic? Let's see how many seats they win at the next general election.

Atholl

Just like Mystery, you are also making the case to revoke, we clearly didn't have the interest or intellect to make this sort of decision.

I broke my hip last year, i could have gone to my local pub and held a ballot on what my treatment should be (i'm sure a quick google would have made everyone a consultant) OR i could have seen an Orthopedic surgeon, specialising in hip/leg fractures....

mmmmmm decisions decisions! what should i do????

Some things are best left to the government and their advisors.

but they still might have the pleasure of seeing their towns attacked and snipers hiding in the hedges

Those in NI who voted leave obviously have no such fears.