Ireland and your vote.

[RuggerHug]

I am genuinely interested in all opinions here and I really hope that comes across. I don't want to start arguments or stir up hatred or insults. I've been on these boards for awhile and I know I've probably been quite ranty at times. I really want to not be here, so I'd like to ask everyone who voted, leave or remain, the following and I'd really appreciate your answers/thoughts.

Did ROI and NI play a part in your decision to vote whatever way?

Did the effect of a vote either way to NI and ROI occur at all, if so how?

Since the result, did anyone have a change of heart/become more sure of their vote based on what came out regarding ROI and NI afterwards?

Have you any thoughts on how we've been during it all/how our media portrays activities in the UK(if you're aware of what is said/shown here).

Hopefully this won't come across as trying to start a fight but, in all of this, did you care about us and the fallout or did you consider it not the UKs/anyone elses problem?

For disclosure, I'm Irish, in ROI, spent a lot of time at the border/in NI before the GFA, not as much after. Anyone I know in the UK that had a vote voted remain, I know 1 Leave voter(who lives in ROI).

Thanks in advance for sharing your thoughts.

[BlaueLagune]

What shocked me, and still does, that parliament voted to trigger Article 50, and May's government triggered it, while NI had (and has) no government.

[BlaueLagune]

I'm in England and we weren't taught anything about the Irish troubles at school

I'm not sure how old you are but I'm surprised even if you're 10 years younger than me that you wouldn't have known about the Bishopsgate/Baltic Exchange or Canary Wharf bombings or those in Warrington or Manchester...

When I was a child/in my teens there was news every night about someone getting murdered in Northern Ireland - either unionist or nationalist, tit for tat, all the time.

People didn't need to learn it in school, it wasn't history, it was current affairs! Now of course it is different (or at least it was history, since 2016, not so much).

I did a work placement in a law firm in London in the early 90s. Their office was affected by two IRA bombs, one not so bad, the other meant they had to move out (not the target, just near the bomb).

The current deal (and May's deal) could have made a real difference in NI. It's not a well-off area due to being starved of investment for so long. But a special economic zone of sorts with a foot in both UK and EU camps could be really attractive for investors. And comfortably off people with decent jobs don't generally get drawn into terrorism, either.

Of course the best deal of all the one we already have.

[MysteryTripAgain]

Even bigger pig in a poke now that Johnson has sent three letters to the EU!

I thought the proposed deal that kept NI in EU customs to solve the border problem was fair. Seemed to be the best way forward.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Nah, not sorted because the whole thing was a pig in a poke. The Leave that Leavers voted for could never be delivered because it was a contradictory shambles of all things to all Leavers.

[MysteryTripAgain]

Obviously it HAS affected GB ( not UK mainland) as we’ve not been able to sort it for 3 years

Not sorted because of arrogant MPs who think their personal opinion takes priority over a majority vote. Biggest culprits are;

Labour trying to force a general election

LibDems whose leader, Jo Swinson, has said even if there was another vote to leave it would be ignored.

SNP who think the Scottish vote takes priority over the overall vote. They seem to forget that the number of people who voted leave is three times greater than the entire population of Scotland.

Therefore the media should have been reporting to everyone within UK on how it would affect them in the context of the whole country and everyone should have been thinking that way

Media promoted the following;

Immigration was destroying the UK
UK gives £50 million per day to the EU
Barrier, Juncker are not elected.

No reference to NI or GFA in UK mainland media.

[MysteryTripAgain]

a good explanation of the issues and that it was brought up in advance of the Referendum (by Blair, Major and even Cameron in the HoC amongst others) but dismissed as "Project Fear" or just not reported in the UK MSM hmm

NI and GFA were not referenced in the £9 Million spent on leaflets sent to each household in the UK. Nor were they mentioned on the government website eureferendum. These are indisputable facts. Even Bellinisurge has acknowledged that to be true.

If NI and GFA were considered to be important issues, why did the remain campaign lead by Cameron omit these subjects from the hugely expensive leaflet paid for by taxpayers? Why were they not referenced on the government websites.

More significantly if NI and GFA were paramount why was the vote in NI not 100% remain?

Answer that one remain supporters.

[blubberyboo]

The facts that you refer to might affect NI, but not UK mainland. Hence reported in Irish media, but not UK mainland media

Obviously it HAS affected GB ( not UK mainland) as we’ve not been able to sort it for 3 years

Remember the referendum was for UK to leave the EU NOT Great Britain on its own

Therefore the media should have been reporting to everyone within UK on how it would affect them in the context of the whole country and everyone should have been thinking that way

If they didn’t they don’t have my sympathy

Hope the weather is good in Asia by the way!

[prettybird]

@LoyaltyBonus - go back and read the whole thread (ignore the posts from MysteryTripAgain to make it quicker - he just regurgitates lots of crap words, although the responses from those that can be bothered reading his posts are worthwhile rebuttals of his nonsense ) and you'll find a good explanation of the issues and that it was brought up in advance of the Referendum (by Blair, Major and even Cameron in the HoC amongst others) but dismissed as "Project Fear" or just not reported in the UK MSM

[MysteryTripAgain]

It is the British people’s responsibility to find out about these issues in their own country before voting

Do you really think people spend months, weeks, days or even hours researching in libraries or internet before they vote? They don't. They will read articles in the press, listen to the live TV debates, watch TV such as Question Time and News night. As the poster AthollPlace said several times, people vote on issues that will directly affect them. Issues that don't effect them will very likely be ignored when they vote.

It was the prime ministers responsibility to make this bloody clear to the electorate

Cameron was convinced it would be an east remain victory. He spent £9 million of taxpayers money to send leaflets to every household in the UK (NI included) that detailed the advantages of remaining in the EU. NI and GFA was not mentioned.

Leaflet also listed the potential disadvantages of leaving the EU. Again NI and GFA not mentioned. So Cameron and the other that developed the leaflet obviously thought NI and GFA was not worth mentioning?.

It was the British media’s responsibility to report factually on what the prime minister said in Westminster

Can you quote a law for that statement?

Media reported what they thought would catch peoples' attention the most which was;

Immigration is destroying the UK
UK sends £50 million per day to the EU
EU Commissioners like Barnier and Juncker are not elected

I didn’t say they had to read the Irish media. Just that it is a sad state of affairs that people defend Brexit when their own local media and government hid facts from them and yet a neighbouring country can report on it

The facts that you refer to might affect NI, but not UK mainland. Hence reported in Irish media, but not UK mainland media.

Surely you have heard of the phrases:

I am alright Jack

Look after number one first

[Seeingadistance]

For fucks sake!

Watching QT just now, and another wise man in the audience has said why do we keep going on about the Island of Ireland and letting it stop Brexit, so let’s just have an Island of Ireland!

Ffs!

[blubberyboo]

You are referring to Irish media which targets less than 7 million people. I refer to UK media which targets about 60 million people. Do you really think people on UK mainland read the Irish Times

Fgs this has been the point of the entire thread!!!!!!

It is the British people’s responsibility to find out about these issues in their own country before voting

It was the prime ministers responsibility to make this bloody clear to the electorate.

It was the British media’s responsibility to report factually on what the prime minister said in Westminster

I didn’t say they had to read the Irish media. Just that it is a sad state of affairs that people defend Brexit when their own local media and government hid facts from them and yet a neighbouring country can report on it.

Forget about Nobel peace prizes for John Hume. Evidently it should have been awarded to British Mumsnetters who had the answer all along “ peace will prevail if people want it to!”

[IwishIwasaspaceman]

@pallisers

It isn't that I did or didn't care about people in your country.
"This sums it up really. Whoops I forgot a whole bit of my country - silly me!"

It is YOUR country. the people of northern Ireland are the people in YOUR country. You did or didn't care about people in YOUR OWN country.

Well, Northern Ireland is indeed part of the UK but I responded to RuggerHug's question:
"Hopefully this won't come across as trying to start a fight but, in all of this, did you care about us and the fallout or did you consider it not the UKs/anyone elses problem?

For disclosure, I'm Irish, in ROI,"
I clearly quoted RuggerHug's question in my response. They disclosed that they are in ROI and that is not a part of my country.

[IwishIwasaspaceman]

the utter offensiveness of this. Do you really think people didn't want peace before the GFA??? That they weren't striving for it, hoping for it, praying for it?
I'm sorry, I don't mean to be offensive. I should have clarified that I was referring to everyone collectively wanting peace. Yes, some or even many will have wanted peace and been hoping for it and praying for it (not that hoping and praying for it is a practical way of attaining it) but everyone has to want peace in order to do whatever it takes to secure it.

[LaurieMarlow]

What I find so offensive iwish about your position, is that the people who achieved peace in NI did not just bleat about it happening ‘if people wanted it.‘

They worked for DECADES on it. Understanding the nuances that people like you haven’t the first clue about. Getting key people onside. Applying considerable intelligence and education to it. I include key British politicians in that, most notably John Major and Mo Mowlam.

The result was the GFA, that you so blithely admit you know nothing about. It was/is a triumph. A total game changer. It created the framework for peace.

It saddens me more than I can ever express that brexiteers would tear this amazing piece of work up because they couldn’t be arsed understanding it’s significance or figuring out their own Brexit that they apparently wanted so badly.

To come on here with platitudes about people ‘wanting peace’ is just so fucking shallow and banal. It makes me very angry.

[Lifebi]

If people want unicorns there will be unicorns.

[pallisers]

I'm sorry you feel like that but I do still believe that there will be peace if people want peace.

the utter offensiveness of this. Do you really think people didn't want peace before the GFA??? That they weren't striving for it, hoping for it, praying for it?

[pallisers]

It isn't that I did or didn't care about people in your country.

This sums it up really. Whoops I forgot a whole bit of my country - silly me!

It is YOUR country. the people of northern Ireland are the people in YOUR country. You did or didn't care about people in YOUR OWN country. Unless you aren't a citizen of the UK in which case how did you vote?

[LaurieMarlow]

I'm sorry you feel like that but I do still believe that there will be peace if people want peace.

Given you admit you know nothing about it, then you’re just bleating banal platitudes. Your ignorance is quite something.

Go and do some reading up on it and then come back to this thread.

But please understand that bringing back the border actively dismantles the framework that ensured peace.

[LoyaltyBonus]

No, TBH what it meant for the border in Ireland didn't even occur to me but now, I am disgusted that people were "sold" brexit as a way to "regain control of our borders" without anyone mentioning what that would mean for the Good Friday agreement and the repercussions of that.

I can't believe no one on either side of the campaign discussed it (or did they and it didn't get the press or did I just miss it?)

[IwishIwasaspaceman]

Do you know anything about what the GFA delivered for NI nationalists and what a border would do to dismantle a solution that had been found to a centuries old conflict?
Obviously not. I evidently need to read up in the Irish troubles and the GFA.
I'm in England and we weren't taught anything about the Irish troubles at school.
I think most people I know won't know anything about the detail of the GFA but just know that there's a (clearly not working) power-sharing agreement.

Hearing about horrific bombings and shootings all the time on the news, running out of town when the bombs went off in Birmingham and having bomb detectors for post in my workplace because we provided catering services to the RUC is probably the sum of what I know about the troubles. I had a friend in the army in the mid 1970s in Belfast who told us he never saw any trouble and spent his days bored and unrolling barbed wire.

I think until the Birmingham Bombings it was something most people I know felt was far removed from them.

Obviously you have good reason to have knowledge and perhaps experience of it all but I'm sure many in England, Wales and Scotland will not have the same insight.

'Peace will prevail if people want it’ in the context if centuries of national and political turmoil is the kind of banal ignorance I’d expect from a 12 year old.
I'm sorry you feel like that but I do still believe that there will be peace if people want peace.

[bellinisurge]

I second your "Fuck's sake" @DarlingNikita

[DarlingNikita]

to my mind, as long as people want peace then peace will prevail.

Fuck's sake.

[LaurieMarlow]

People talk about it setting back the peace process but, to my mind, as long as people want peace then peace will prevail. I don't see why war should suddenly break out

Do you know anything about what the GFA delivered for NI nationalists and what a border would do to dismantle a solution that had been found to a centuries old conflict?

I mean, I know the answer, but just trying to give you a chance.

‘Peace will prevail if people want it’ in the context if centuries of national and political turmoil is the kind of banal ignorance I’d expect from a 12 year old.

[IwishIwasaspaceman]

Did ROI and NI play a part in your decision to vote whatever way?
No ( just as The Falklands didn't).

Did the effect of a vote either way to NI and ROI occur at all, if so how?
No.

Since the result, did anyone have a change of heart/become more sure of their vote based on what came out regarding ROI and NI afterwards?
No. I have always been sure of my vote.

Have you any thoughts on how we've been during it all/how our media portrays activities in the UK(if you're aware of what is said/shown here).
No. I've never looked at your media or the media of any other EU countries.

Hopefully this won't come across as trying to start a fight but, in all of this, did you care about us and the fallout or did you consider it not the UKs/anyone elses problem?
It isn't that I did or didn't care about people in your country. I didn't consider it at all because I feel it needed to be a decision made by the head and not the heart.

I don't understand why there would be a fallout. People talk about it setting back the peace process but, to my mind, as long as people want peace then peace will prevail. I don't see why war should suddenly break out ...unless the peace that we have been experiencing is just on the surface and the tensions that existed are still there.

[AdoraBell]

I thought there would be a problem due to my experience while working decades ago. I was a buyer’s clerk, stock ordered for a London store from a USA company and they always delivered to Dublin instead of Belfast. Every time I raised the issue they could not grasp the fact that NI is separate from ROI, they told me, repeatedly, that it was only 1 country and was no boarder.

Fast forward to the Good Friday Agreement that removed the boarder checks.

Then, fast forward to a situation that undoes the Good Friday Agreement. That will not work.

I know that the Good Friday Agreement does much more than simply stopping boarder checks. Also, I don’t claim to be more intelligent than anyone else.

One of the reasons why I voted Remain was I could not see a way that we could leave the EU without damaging either the NI and ROI situation, or causing problems elsewhere in the UK. I know the EU isn’t perfect. But I do think Britain would be better off remaining in the EU rather than leaving.